nolvadex post cycle

X

xtremethickness

New member
any one use it to recover their HTPA instead of clomid. I have read many posts signifying that nolvadex would be better. But as shit goes not everything on paper has real meaning in everyday life.

Xtreme
 
The following "quote" was taken from a thread on Clomid Blues, and although I have no direct experience with it, SWALE would be more than qualified to make that statement, since post-cycle recovery would be a specialty of his.

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1160


Originally posted by SWALE

...........Anyway, not everyone, or even a majority of men, experience negative side effects on Clomid. If you do, I'd just substitute Nolvadex. They are, except for dosing, interchangable
Click to expand...
 
Nolvadex better than clomid post-cycle to recover HTPA??? Where did you read that out of curiousity?
 
Thanks Bro...It's was not meant as a flame. I was genuinely interested in reading the article.
 
Juice Authority said:
Thanks Bro...It's was not meant as a flame. I was genuinely interested in reading the article.
Click to expand...

It didn't sound like a flame :)

Here are the abstracts of the studies cited in the article:

Fertil Steril 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7 Related Articles, Links


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.



Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30 Related Articles, Links


Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

More info here:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/9/3027
 
definately go with the nolvadex if you are using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) , besides keeping gyno at bay nolvadex is supposed to enhance the effect of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) , [i dont remember where i saw the study and if i did im not smart enough to make a link lol ]
 
this study shows that clomid is better

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

PMID: 6781360 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
i will be doing nolvadex @20mg/day, along with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and .25mg/adex post cycle this time. I'll post my experience... although it may not be for a long time.
 
Here's a study showing nolva lowers femara levels in the system when combined.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.

JohnnyB
 
iced said:
this study shows that clomid is better



I don't think so. Remember, this is an in vitro study, done on cultured rat pituitary cells in Petri dishes!
These can be valuable studies, leading to hypotheses about human drug activities, which can then be tested with in vivo studies on humans.
But let's please be a little more critical about what "shows" the superiority of one treatment over another.
Click to expand...
 
JohnnyB said:
Here's a study showing nolva lowers femara levels in the system when combined.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.

JohnnyB
Click to expand...




Interesting info, but probably no applicability to BB. They noted that estrogen levels were markedly depressed w/ femara alone, and this did not change significantly when nolvadex was added.
 
i have personally done nolva only and crashed, so for me at least, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) the last two weeks of the cycle, and clomid post is the best for me.
 
iced said:
i have personally done nolva only and crashed, so for me at least, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) the last two weeks of the cycle, and clomid post is the best for me.
Click to expand...

and its quotes like this that mean more to me than any study posted on the boards. until someone does a study on a post cycle bb'er then ill go on real life experiences. like the original poster stated some things look great on paper but fall apart in real life.
 
bronco944 said:
and its quotes like this that mean more to me than any study posted on the boards. until someone does a study on a post cycle bb'er then ill go on real life experiences. like the original poster stated some things look great on paper but fall apart in real life.
Click to expand...

Yes I couldn't agree more, ....but did you read my reply above where I quoted SWALE, if you don't remember who he is or what he does, check out his web site for a quick refresher. www.allthingsmale.com

Like I said before he is more than qualified to make that statement, and his experience would come from first hand knowledge of working directly with guys like us.
 
no idea who he is, but i see your point. interesting link also. i got a guy i work with who i might refer to him because Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) might be good for him. and yes he certanly has the credentials to say what he said.
 
iced said:
this study shows that clomid is better

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

PMID: 6781360 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

Actually, that study shows that Clomid is estrogenic in pituitary which doesn't have a negative effect on LH response to LHRH in vitro, but it does in vivo - check the study 1 I posted.
After several weeks of clomid use the LH response to LHRH was decreased (proving once again that Clomid is estrogenic in pituitary) while it was enhanced with Nolvadex.
That's important because estrogen has both a pituitary and a hypothalamic site of action.

from:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/9/3027

"The mechanism proposed for this divergence between spontaneous pulse height and acute pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH was that clomiphene was having tissue-specific mixed agonist/antagonist effects. The authors concluded that clomiphene was acting as an estrogen antagonist at the hypothalamus, resulting in an increase in endogenous GnRH secretion, but as an estrogen agonist at the pituitary, causing decreased responsiveness to exogenous GnRH"

..."This concept that E2 is a more potent suppressor of LH secretion than is T is supported by studies in both prepubertal boys (42, 43) and adult males (1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 41, 44), indicating that, on a molar basis, the steroid dose required to suppress gonadotropin secretion is approximately 200-fold less for E2 than for T..."

..."From these clinical investigative studies on the impact of aromatase inhibition in NL and GnRH-deficient men, employing frequent blood sampling combined with administration of a GnRH antagonist, we conclude that, in the human male, estrogen has dual sites of negative feedback, acting at the hypothalamus to decrease GnRH pulse frequency and at the pituitary to decrease pituitary responsiveness to GnRH..."
 
I recently spoke with a member here, that used nolvadex post-cycle @ 80mg/day for the first week and then lower it to 40mgs 3-4 days, then 20mg for the duration of normal clomid therapy.
- I think if you combine this with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), then it *should* work.

Iced--how did you run the nolvadex inorder to crash?

rj--you might want to bump up the nolva, just a suggestion.
 
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