please advise on clomid Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) plan

coacht

New member
please advise on clomid hcg trt plan

I have a friend ("Jim") with low T that is concerned about the recent revelations of nsa internet snooping so asked me to post on his behalf.

Please comment on his plan of action or anything else below.

Last month Jim (43 y.o., 35% BF , (14% prior to low t problems)) received the following LC/MS/MS blood test results:


Jim

Total Test 212 ng/dL
FSH 2.8 mIU/mL
LH 3.0 mIU/mL
TSH, 3rd Gen 1.51 mIU/mL

Glucose 106 mg/dL

Cholesterol,Total 260
Triglycerides 234
LDL Cholesterol 173

CHOL/HDLC Ratio 6.5
nonHDL Cholesterol 220

Hemoglobin Alc 5.8

Endnote- Platelet estimation adequate; unable to report due to significant platelet clumping."Platelets clumped, appear adequate"

Jim wants to have more children. He has been taking 50 mg clomid ED since geting the test results (about a month ago). After a week to ten days some joint pain that had been bothering him disappeared. Is this dose too big? I've read 25 mg E3D is ideal, but I think considering the half life and I just have 50 mg capsules, I think this is impossible to achieve. Would 50 mg every third day be esides, this guy went from 200 to 700 in 6 months at 50 mg daily healthboards.com/boards/mens-health/746451-clomid-low-t.html
another guy on the same page did 25 mg (half a pill) 2 or 3 times per week. The Clomid raised his total T from around 300 to around 800


Please advise on dose.

He has ordered HCG.I've read studies (I cant find now) that say 250iu every three days is sufficient, any more is a waste.

1. Will clomid raise testosterone levels substantially without ever doing trt? How about in conjunction with HCG? Ive read studies that show as long as the balls are working (adequate LH levels), and it isnt pituitary, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will help.

2. If Jim's Dr refuses to prescibe HCG, and Jim were to order it online to take during his testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), would his sperm levels still rise? Or do sperm levels have to be high to begin with and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) just maintains them during trt?

3. Jim also has access to nolvadex, would it help in any way to get his sperm count up and if so how? and at what dose?

Jim has researched the above questions and thinks he has a good grasp on what he needs to do (clomid and hcg
 
So the clomid is not by doctors orders? clomid is better than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mimics LH while Clomid stimulates production , using them together is fine, 50 mg a day or EOD is good, you should give it some time after discontinuing before retesting , Skip Nolva for your situation,
 
I thought if you are on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) you are on forever. Isn't that the point of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Your body doesn't produce enough natty? I dont think you need to run either then, unless you want kids still. But i would think of an AI.
 
You can get empty capsules from a health food store or online if you want to divide those 50s....it's not hard to do.

Most guys don't seem to feel better by raising their TT with anything but test.

You can still be fertile on actual testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), plus you could freeze some sperm before starting.

I've heard that it makes no sense to take clomid and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as they tend to fight each other.

I wonder if nolvadex might not be better.
 
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Research here.

The ideal restart is starting to look like this;
2 weeks hCG and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (aromasin or Adex)
Discontinue hCG
4 weeks clomid, nolvadex and aromasin.

You need to get your diet under control. Your total Testerone doesn't suck because you have hypogonadism, it sucks because you're overweight and your diet sucks. Your glucose is high - stop eating all the carbs (say no to sugars, yes to fiber from green leafy foods). Your cholesterol is high. Stop eating processed crap and again, say no to the sugars. And your triglycerides are high too.

You can do the restart, but get yourself on a ketogenic diet. Research the paleo diet, a diet called carb night or another carb cycling diet. That will do more for making you healthier, readying your bodyfat and increasing your testosterone.
 
Tell "Jim" Clomid and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) together are kind of a waste, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mono-therapy with anastrozole to fight the E would be the way to go.

:)
 
So the clomid is not by doctors orders? clomid is better than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mimics LH while Clomid stimulates production , using them together is fine, 50 mg a day or EOD is good, you should give it some time after discontinuing before retesting , Skip Nolva for your situation,

Neither the clomid nor the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) are per dr's orders. The Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) came in today. He mixed 5k iu with 2ml water to get 250 iu per tick mark on the syringe. It was near impossible to get the first tick mark full without getting too much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in the syringe. Then when he tried to squirt it back into the vial to just one tick mark, too much would go. So hopefullly 200 or 300 instead of 250 is okay because it will fluctuate apparently

thanks
 
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Jim took a sperm test but didnt get his results yet. Just an assumption 212 test wouldnt be producing much sperm and that something would be needed to boost sperm levels (hcg, clomid, even test for a while any way)
 
Jim has smaller caps and a capm quick but always lose bulk powder when capping and clomid is too expensive and hard to get to waste any.
he will just half the frequency if anything.
 
I thought if you are on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) you are on forever. Isn't that the point of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Your body doesn't produce enough natty? I dont think you need to run either then, unless you want kids still. But i would think of an AI.

Jim took a sperm test but didnt get his results yet. Just an assumption 212 test wouldnt be producing much sperm and that something would be needed to boost sperm levels (hcg, clomid, even test for a while any way)

i replied to this but forgot to add your quote above, and cant delete the other reply. if you know how please tell me
 
Research here.

The ideal restart is starting to look like this;
2 weeks hCG and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (aromasin or Adex)
Discontinue hCG
4 weeks clomid, nolvadex and aromasin.

You need to get your diet under control. Your total Testerone doesn't suck because you have hypogonadism, it sucks because you're overweight and your diet sucks. Your glucose is high - stop eating all the carbs (say no to sugars, yes to fiber from green leafy foods). Your cholesterol is high. Stop eating processed crap and again, say no to the sugars. And your triglycerides are high too.

You can do the restart, but get yourself on a ketogenic diet. Research the paleo diet, a diet called carb night or another carb cycling diet. That will do more for making you healthier, readying your bodyfat and increasing your testosterone.

Thanks, but diet's fine. Something else is causing the glucose problem. Jims wife is a gourmet chef he gets fed stuff like salmon and asparagus every night. He forces her to make fried foods about twice a year. Fast food like coke, fries is less than once a month. He used to combine foods as a TC Frye proponent a long time ago.

and considering HCG's shelf life, he would have to do the whole 5k iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in the two weeks wouldnt he? How would he dose that?

This would be a good time to switch to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) though if he were to do your cycle as he just finished a month of clomid. Does he need to wait for the cloimd to clear his system prior to starting hcg?
 
hCG's shelf life is 30-60 days, depending who you ask - so no, would not need to use within 14 days.

And I'm sorry to tell you sir, blood tests don't lie. Your glucose is out of range. The diet needs to be changed. Apparently his wife is feeding him a carb dense diet - whether its rice, potatoes, pasta, candy, soda, straight sugar - it doesn't matter, it all effects your blood glucose levels. He's on his way to being diabetic.

His bodyfat also proves that regardless of how good of cook his wife is - she must be a little too good of cook. Regardless of low T or high T, bodyfat doesn't increase by itself. Eating too many calories is what increases bodyfat.

Don't look for good, honest, advice if you're going to fight it when the truth hurts.
 
hCG's shelf life is 30-60 days, depending who you ask - so no, would not need to use within 14 days.

And I'm sorry to tell you sir, blood tests don't lie. Your glucose is out of range. The diet needs to be changed. Apparently his wife is feeding him a carb dense diet - whether its rice, potatoes, pasta, candy, soda, straight sugar - it doesn't matter, it all effects your blood glucose levels. He's on his way to being diabetic.

His bodyfat also proves that regardless of how good of cook his wife is - she must be a little too good of cook. Regardless of low T or high T, bodyfat doesn't increase by itself. Eating too many calories is what increases bodyfat.

Don't look for good, honest, advice if you're going to fight it when the truth hurts.

Good points and thanks for the input, but theres something going on other than diet. this past weekend he rolled his ankle, spraining it, and twisted his opposite knee and had to go to the emergency room. He bought a 1500$ elliptical a few months ago when he could no longer run because of joint and back pain, and now gets winded after a minute or two on that.

He had a dr appt today though and had lost 4 lbs since last week's visit. Dont know if its from eating shakes as a replacement once or twice a day or something bad. bp 148/97.

Starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) tomorrow. Doc said testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) didnt cause infertility normally. That was why he got the clomid and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in the first place. When he asked the doc if he would prescribe Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) with the test because he wanted more children nthe doc said testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) didnt normally cause infertility.

Will check out the paleo diet
 
If your going to be mixing Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and clomid to raise natural t you may want to look into a light dose Aromatase inhibitor (AI) maybe .25mg of adex every 3-4 days. When I found out I had low t I didnt have insurance so I used this stack stoked daa clomid nolva then I drop the nolva made my joints hurt bad, and started using adex. A couple months later I got on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) so I ask if yours is naturally that low why not start Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)? Youll have to continuously have some sort of stack to keep your t levels up. Itd be cheaper and better to just start therapy.
 
Because testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is forever. Tryi g to raise is naturally is preferable.

Or maybe try to cycle the test but permanent is scary
 
I usually try to avoid a cut and paste...but take a look at this study

Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism, Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E., J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism.This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
Study showing a hypogonadic 30-year old male, suffering permanent shutdown from steroid abuse, fully recovered natural hormone levels and HPTA function from 2 months of 100mg Clomid therapy:


Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse, Tan RS, Vasudevan D., Fertility and Sterility, Volume 79, Issue 1, Pages 203-205


OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
Here's another study showing only 7 days of Clomid therapy increased total testosterone by 100% and, more importantly, free testosterone by over 300% in young men:

The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate, Bremner, William J, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1987 Dec;65(6):1118-26


Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.
 
also looking over "Jim's" labs he has an inflammation problem..can you ask "Jim" if he uses fish oils and to what extent? or to what extent is "Jim" being force fed salmon? and does the salmon have things like cream sauces and what not?

"Jim" may be being overfed eating rich foods but he may have a low grade allergy to something as well or an oncoming thyroid issue which would cause many of "Jim's" problems with his weight, glucose, low test etc..

thyroid issues are however less likely in men than women but shouldn't be dismissed either

was "Jim's" blood drawn fasted?

His A1c and glucose are a good match for numbers and not out of hand...but pushing the envelope
 
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