Stone Cold, Brock L & Vets!- Nolvadex, Do You REALLY Think It Hinders Muscle Gain???

Texas Ranger

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Stone Cold, Brock L & Vets!- Nolvadex, Do You REALLY Think It Hinders Muscle Gain???

I know Nolvadex has gotten a real bad rap over the years for negatively effecting gains made on a cycle. But, from what I seen and read, all it does is lessen water retention and NOT actual muscle. My thinking is this- If you train hard and get ample amount of rest. Plus, take in the proper amount of Protein, Carbs, and Calories, why wouldn't you? It's not like Nolvadex burns Protein, Carbs, and Calories, which is the backbone of ANY cycle. What's your opinion???
 
Nolvadex will not hinder gains. It will limit unwanted water gain and bloat. Alot of people use nolvadex on a cycle when signs of gyno appear, then continue to run it at 20 mg for the remainder of the cycle just to be safe. To avoid gyno from appearing at all AND keep your gains lean, you could use Idex at .25 EOD and work from there. Again, nolvadex will not hinder muscle gains, just water and bloat from estrogen sides. Hope this helps bro
 
Nolvadex is a selective estrogen blocker, it binds to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue, preventing gyno. It will NOT reduce bloat associated with a cycle.

I beleive it does lower IGF-1 to some extent, but when you are on a cycle your levels are so elevated, what is a 10% reduction or so going to do anyways......it is not going to make that much of a difference in your gains.

If you are after something to reduce water (bloat), your best choices would be Aromasin, Letrozole, or Arimedex.
 
Stonecold- I have heard many taking nolva in response to estrogen sides (meaning heavy bloat and water retention) and when signs of gyno appeared during a cycle, the use of nolva would remedy this problem?
 
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It will work for gyno. IT WILL NOT reduce bloat. Arimidex, femera, or aromasin will. They prevent testerone from converting into estrogen. Nolvadex prevents estrogen from binding to recpetor sites, namely breast tissue. Both Nolvadex and arimidex lower igf-1, but that being said Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) raise IGF-1 so i think the concern is overrated.
 
This may help answer your question:

Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Aug;79(2):513-8 Related Articles, Links


Estrogen receptor blockade with tamoxifen diminishes growth hormone secretion in boys: evidence for a stimulatory role of endogenous estrogens during male adolescence.

Metzger DL, Kerrigan JR.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908.

The increase in GH production during the male adolescent growth spurt has been attributed to both androgen and estrogen receptor-mediated processes. To evaluate the role of endogenous estrogens in the control of GH secretion, we administered the estrogen receptor antagonist tamoxifen to 10 late pubertal males. Blood samples were obtained for GH determination at 10-min intervals on 2 occasions during the last 24 h of a 4-day course of either tamoxifen or placebo. Waveform-specific, multiple parameter deconvolution analysis was employed to assess GH secretory and elimination dynamics. Estrogen receptor blockade resulted in a significant (P < 0.05) diminution in mean 24-h serum GH concentrations, from 3.9 +/- 1.0 (placebo; mean +/- SEM) to 2.7 +/- 0.6 micrograms/L (tamoxifen). This was associated with a significant (P < 0.01) decline in the GH production rate [237 +/- 55 vs. 155 +/- 33 micrograms/L GH distribution volume (Lv).24 h]. Furthermore, this reduction in GH secretion was the result of significant decreases in both the maximal GH secretory rate (0.46 +/- 0.08 vs. 0.34 +/- 0.06 microgram/Lv.min; P < 0.01) and, to a smaller degree, GH secretory burst number (16 +/- 1 vs. 14 +/- 1/24 h; P < 0.05). There was also a trend toward reduced mass of GH secreted per burst (13.3 +/- 2.5 vs. 10.3 +/- 2.0 micrograms/Lv; P = 0.06). No significant alterations in either GH elimination t1/2 or GH secretory burst half-duration were observed during estrogen receptor antagonism. Tamoxifen treatment was associated with a significant (P < 0.05) decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor-I concentrations.

If you are not prone to gyno, there is no good reason to use tamoxifen, IMO.
 
Did anyone notice they call Tamox an "estrogen receptor antagonist", when it is an agonist in some tissues.

There are growth factors released within muscle tissue which result in growth independent of IGF-1 levels.
 
I've found that the cycles that I've used anti-e's on were the ones that I gained the least amount of muscle mass on
 
Needsize--Is it possible the water weight gain is what makes you bigger?

IMPO high estrogen levels are dangerous. I am a firm believer in maintaing estrogen within physiological range. I really am afraid guys who do not control estrogen will be suffering additional prostatic morbidity later on if they don't.
 
SWALE said:


IMPO high estrogen levels are dangerous. I am a firm believer in maintaing estrogen within physiological range. I really am afraid guys who do not control estrogen will be suffering additional prostatic morbidity later on if they don't.
Do you advocate proscar for DHT on the other side of the coin?
 
No, its definitely less lean muscle mass, i also dont get half teh strength gains without the water retention
 
Needsize--it is well-proven that intra-muscular water lends strength because of its "shock-absorber" effect. You simply HAVE TO be holding more water if your estrogen is high. I'm not sure how one may know they have less lean muscle mass when they cannot attain lean muscle mass while holding a lot of water. There is no way around it. Of course, some guys are more prone to it than others. I have had patients blow up and get soggy on 100mg of Upjohn per week. Others do seem to be able to take even massive amounts of testosterone without problems.

I think DHT control is vastly overused. DHT is a good thing. I've had Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) patients taking finasteride or saw palmetto when they have no problems whatsoever with hair loss or prostate morbidity. "Someone" told them to (I'd like to meet this "Someone" character). They may have very good serum T levels, but were still weak, fatigued, and impotent. I just D/C'd the anti-DHT, made no other changes, and within a week or so they were rockin'.

It is important, however, to maintain DHT within normal physiological range. That is, of course, more difficult while taking a gram per week. For my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) guys, you won't see DHT above normal range with IM testosterone injections. Transdermal delivery systems, however, can easily push DHT into an unhealthy range while taking serum T to the same level as the IM injection did (for instance).
 
I have routinely used 1.5 to 2 grams a week of steroids with no anti-e's. No gyno.....which is just the genetic "luck of the draw". Water retention is easily manipulated by diet, and by jacking up the metabolism.
Swale, do you mean that tamoxifen would be beneficial to prostate health? If so, this would be a good point, indeed. I have had some prostatitis.....not unusual for guys my age.
 
IM--A study was done which showed Tamoxifen had anti-cancer properties. If I remember right, it was done in rats--but still, interesting. Prostatitus is a different mater, as it is an inflammatory reaction to infection or another unknown cause.

NeedSize--I don't know what you mean when you say finasteride is "saving [your] prostate".
 
SWALE said:


NeedSize--I don't know what you mean when you say finasteride is "saving [your] prostate".

Because finasteride stops the formation of dht, and its dht that causes the prostate problems when on juice
 
Hard to tell about the prostate thing, I seem to dribble more after whizzing but that could be anything, just seems better safe than sorry with the prostate
 
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