SWALE on some testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) drama...very good info with the drama

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SWALE

Community Veteran, DO / AllThingsMale.com
SWALE on some TRT drama...very good info with the drama

Well, I just visited Cutting Edge Muscle, and was quite shocked at what I found there. It turns out JGUNS, owner, has decided to smear me on that Board. Perhaps it is time for me to respond. I have been asked repeatedly why I chose to leave that Board, and the HRT Forum I worked so hard to start there, but have until now held my tongue, as I believed that was the gracious thing to do. However, now I am feel like I have to speak out, and so will do so.

What is this REALLY about? A month or so ago this guy all of a sudden pops up on the HRT Forum at CEM and starts spewing all this nonsense about how, for instance, “200mg is the usual dose for TRT”. He then conveniently adds that he runs some sort of a HRT clinic, and starts trolling for business. I responded (as I always would) that 200mg per week of test cyp will take most men to an unhealthful T level about twice the top of normal range, and that same could never be considered true “TRT” (you have all heard me make that very point many times, ad nausem). As you all know, Anti-Aging medicine is all about optimizing health and fitness, not doing steroid doses (which is what twice the top of normal range is). Because he was not a paid sponsor, I also deleted his advertising, as any Mod would. I did not attack him, or do anything which would lower the prestige of the Forum.

As I am quite familiar with the charlatans who run these so-called “HRT Clinics”, I immediately narrowed down who this guy could be representing to three possible such operations. JGUNS told me who they were, and sure enough, it was one of the three, and I already knew of their “program” (which is what they sell). Just to be sure, I reviewed their website. There I quickly found enough nonsense to confirm my suspicions.

These guys are not operating in any way, shape or form in any manner which could be described as legitimate Anti-Aging Medicine. They provide testosterone at unhealthy dosages, and do so as a pre-sold “program”. Those of you who are my patients already know that I constantly tinker with dosing and meds until we together maximize health benefits, and that doing so can take several months. So how could anyone know up front how exactly much medication to provide? And the mens’ health information provided there is poorly written, and very much out-of-date. Probably enough to convince the naïve man who is suffering horribly from hypogonadism, and will do ANYTHING to try to feel better, though, and I am sure that is what they are counting on. I know, I pick up new patients all the time from these other guys (including from this very same clinic), and it usually takes me several months to get them straightened out.

The fact they do not even post their prices on their website is interesting. The guy representing them, who goes by “pfjoy” just posted that you have to call them to find out what their prices are. Why on earth would that be? Do they want to know up front how much you are willing to spend before deciding what the price will be? How legitimate! I also suspect they are selling inferior compounded products at vastly inflated prices (it costs about $10 to put testosterone in a bottle), as all the other Internet “HRT Clinics” do. It’s all about the money to them, NOT mens’ health. That is precisely why I dispense only genuine Upjohn test cyp and Androgel, and have NEVER made a single penny from dispensing the meds, as I provide them all at my cost.

I sent this gentleman a PM, graciously pointing out the rules. His response was hostile and childish, to say the least. We ended up emailing back and forth, where I even generously offered to help train his “doctors” on how to properly administer HRT, as I do this every day as part of my regular work. Let’s just say that he would have none of it. I will be happy to provide these emails to anyone who may be interested.

I told JGUNS that I simply could not be associated with such charlatans, as I catch enough heat already in the conventional medical community because I chose to get on the Boards. Those of us who provide legitimate testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) have a steep enough hill to climb already (with all the doctors out there who still tell their patients that “if you take testosterone, you will get prostate cancer”) for me to be associated with doctors who are, essentially, just steroid dealers. And I certainly have no interest in wasting my time constantly correcting their “doctors” when they post information which is detrimental to the health of the Members. I built the four HRT Forums I Moderate (now three, of course) for one purpose only: to help men become healthier and happier. And I will NEVER sell out on my commitment to same. No matter what.

Within a couple days of that time, JGUNS and I had a very long phone conversation, extending well beyond midnight on what was a work day that had begun for me the day before, and will again, at 5AM. I told him everything I share with you all here now. He then promised me that the health of the Members of CEM means more to him than this one Sponsor, and that he would not accept any advertising from these charlatans. He also said this “pfjoy” character said he was canceling payment on the check he wrote to CEM (as he told me in an email he was going to), and that he had no further interest in involvement with CEM. I figured he just realized that he was not going to be allowed to rip off the Members, so was giving up. Based upon JGUNS’ promise, we went on to discuss me offering a couple new lines of mens’ health products I am in the process of endorsing exclusively through his new store, and I followed up our conversation immediately with an extended call to Nick Delgado, PhD, on the West Coast, to apprise him of same. Well, it turns out ‘Ol Doc wasted all that sleep for nothing. Because a couple days later I find out that JGUNS is bragging on the HRT Forum that these new guys are going to be there. Even after all this, my exit was prompt and gracious. The thread announcing my departure is still on CEM.

So, a couple weeks later, JGUNS emails me and tries to make nice. I figure he finally realized that he had just bought a pig in a poke, as we say. Activity on the HRT Forum had all but dried up, and he himself is getting on there, desperately trying to answer questions (why he would consider himself qualified is still a mystery to me). He says he wants me to come back, and that this “pfjoy” character claims to have been writing a letter during our initial communications to establish a working relationship with me, and still wants to. JGUNS also advises me that it would be in my best interest to work with these charlatans. As if! Has he STILL learned nothing about my morals and professional ethics? I pointed out this “pfjoy” guy’s claims were a complete fallacy, and a quick review of the emails I provided of those conversations easily proved the validity of my point, and SHOULD have demonstrated the kind of people JGUNS is choosing to deal with. My impression now of JGUNS is that he does indeed know, but simply does not care. I guess once he realized that I stand firmly on principle, he decided to try to smear me instead.

I am more disappointed in JGUNS than I can find the words to say. It is one thing to sell out to financial interest, to the detriment of the Bro’s. But it is even worse to smear someone who has volunteered literally hundreds of hours away from a very busy medical practice, whose only concern was the health and well-being of the Members. I will now address a few of the hurtful comments he posted. They may not be exactly verbatim, and certainly are not all-inclusive, as after just a few minutes of shock and disappointment, my stomach was so turned that I simply logged off. For instance:

Their “HRT Expert” “has more knowledge in just his little finger” than I possess. Funny, I have never heard of him, and I rub elbows with the finest minds in my field every day. As I told this “pfjoy” guy, I doubt any of their docs could hang with me for 30 seconds in a discussion on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine, and challenged him to do so. No response, of course. Sour grapes from me? Yup—but if you are going to challenge me, you had BETTER come to the table ready to bring the goods! There are reasons why I have developed two brand new testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) treatment protocols already (and am fine-tuning my third as we speak).

JGUNS also brags that this doctor is a Surgeon. That comment would bring snickers from anyone in the medical community. Even were he an Endocrinologist, I train Endo’s in how to properly administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) all the time. I also have at least a hundred patients who were formerly being treated for their hypogonadism by an Endo, but now want the best TRT.

I am gong to predict that whoever their “HRT Expert” is will have a tough time on the CEM HRT Forum, as the members there have already been well-educated on TRUE testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine. They will sniff him out the first paragraph he writes.

JGUNS says that I “put my interests over those of the Board”. Well, I have to give him that one. Make no bones about it, my SOLE interest is in improving mens’ health. No ifs, ands or buts about it. We shall see how long these charlatans stick with CEM, once they realize that they simply cannot make enough money there to make it worth while from a financial standpoint (which is why I have never found it financially wise to pay for a banner anywhere). I never have, and I am the only legitimate HRT physician on the Boards. Perhaps someday these poor souls will realize that a life lived for a true cause is more abundant than one in service to financial gain.

That they have REAL doctors who can prescribe medications. Well, they already had a REAL doctor who prescribes Upjohn, Androgel, HCG, Arimidex, Nolvadex, Clomid, etc. every single day.

Given what I found there this morning, no wonder JGUNS cut my automatic email notification to the thread where he attacks me. Did he think I just would never find out? I noticed he also deleted the stickies I posted there in order to make permanent medical info for the Members. Why would he do that? Was it so the disparity between “The Labs I Run” and what these new guys do will not be made evident? I do not think that is going to work.

I have invited several other well-known LEGITIMATE HRT Physicians to help out on my HRT Forums. None would do so (perhaps worried about something just like this happening). JGUNS recently posted the URL for Cenegenics, the most prestigious HRT Clinic in America, and I was absolutely delighted, as I would welcome their participation (BTW, Cenegenics and I have differences in our treatment protocols, but that is just a matter of physician’s discretion), as I at first thought that meant they were going to become a Sponsor. I would welcome legitimate discussion on HRT medicine from QUALIFIED individuals, and, as I told JGUNS, would truly enjoy the camaraderie of my colleagues. It would also mean the Boards had finally gained a foothold in legitimate HRT medicine, after all my work to try to establish same. What happened at CEM sets us back years.

As mentioned previously, subject of my conversation with JGUNS was also the fact that I am getting ready to personally endorse two new lines of mens’ health products (as soon as enough of my own patients have told me they like them and we have all the labs back to prove efficacy). Yes, I can FINALLY improve mens’ health AND make a few coins in doing so! As he initiated the discussion about me offering them through the Boards, I felt I owed it to him to list them only through the new store he is putting together, as he has broken his arrangement with Ulter. Who would spend precious time and resources developing a business operation with someone who has shown that he will promise one thing one day, then do exactly the opposite (behind your back) the next? Up until today, I really believed JGUNS to be an honorable man (he sure tried to sound like one as he was while trying to talk me into coming back). But his actions are so far contrary to any such impression. Now, of course, my ethical obligation to him no longer is in effect, and I am deciding which single Board will distribute them.

A rather famous guy from one of the Boards who I have gotten to know quite well advised me that I should not post this, because doing so will only serve to provide free advertising for these charlatans. But I had to indulge my well-known temper just a bit (I hope you all have not found me to be too ungentlemanly). Besides that, my patients are intelligent men who are seriously interested in optimizing their health and fitness, NOT in seeing how much testosterone they can try to get from a doctor. They want instant access to the most cutting edge protocols, NOT have their medical care determined by someone else’s profit margin. And it won’t take long for the Members to realize these guys are MUCH more expensive than I am. Besides that, these Internet “HRT Clinics” are a dime a dozen out there.

I have taken a lot of abuse thus far from individuals who, in the interest of either their own financial gain, or their ego’s, have resented my involvement in the Boards. All have been shown, eventually, for who and what they really are. This is just one more sad example. Don’t worry, good Bro’s, ‘Ol Doc has broad shoulders. I will still be around, trying to help out where and when I can. I am just learning where to do that.

CEM is JGUNS Board, and he certainly may do with it as he chooses. I also appreciate how much time, work and expense goes into maintaining such a Board. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to make money by providing supplements and (legitimate) services. However, I draw the line when we get into a situation where you are purposefully damaging the health of others in order to do so. It is as simple as that. You all have been made privy to the inside skinny on what really happened between me and CEM. As always, I stand upon my word.

I hope we can put this mess to rest now, and spend our time in more healthful pursuit.
 
I've been seeing lots of Bro on these boards saying they are HRT/TRT that use doses of 200mg per week for 12 weeks with 2 or 3 weeks off fro post cycle therapy (pct) then back. My responce is your cycling not taking HRT, but they always say that what some anti-aging clinic perscribed. There does seem to be a rash of tese type of clinics popping up.

JohnnyB
 
Johnny--Ya, the "cycling" of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) makes absolutley no sense. Should I ask my guys to pick which three months of the year they want to feel crappy and have their health falling backward? Once I get them tuned up, I want them to stay that way!

IF a doctor takes a man above the top of normal range (except in cases of true wasting diseases, and I do have a couple of patients who fall into that category) then they are providing them with steroids. It is one thing to take a man to the top of physiological range, where plenty of other guys get to ne by luck of Narure. Itis quite another to do what Nature will not.

I have hundreds and hundreds of labs that show men going well above the top of physioogical range on 100, 125, 150mg per week. Nearly EVERYONE will double normal range on 200mg per week. Of course, it is much easier to get away with charging ripoff prices when you are selling steroids (I guess). But how many times have you guys heard me railing on about this same subject? Heck, I am even getting sick of hearing myself talk about it! LOL.

Legitimate HRT docs like myself are trying to do something here: make it okay for EVERY man who needs it to get testosterone. So we HATE it when unscrupulous charlatans come in and give us all a bad name. The hill is steep enough already.
 
I hear ya Bro, the problem is most guys when you ask them about this so-called HRT and say that those doses are to high, thier reply is it's a clinic with a real Dr. Without knowledge of HRT most people are going to go with what every a Dr says over some guy on the internet. Even though the Dr is on the internet.

Not only is the hill steap but now you have to deal with road repair too.

JohnnyB
 
JohnnyB said:
I've been seeing lots of Bro on these boards saying they are HRT/TRT that use doses of 200mg per week for 12 weeks with 2 or 3 weeks off fro post cycle therapy (pct) then back. My responce is your cycling not taking HRT, but they always say that what some anti-aging clinic perscribed. There does seem to be a rash of tese type of clinics popping up.


There was a thread in here recently that fit the pattern of the charlatans that Swale described, even down to the gear from a compounding pharmacy.
 
Mr. dB said:
There was a thread in here recently that fit the pattern of the charlatans that Swale described, even down to the gear from a compounding pharmacy.
I've seen them here and at other boards as well.

JohnnyB
 
JohnnyB said:
I've seen them here and at other boards as well.


The Phone Guy had one up here, but now I can't find it. There were pics of the CP gear, too.
 
Guns removed the offending post at CEM to avoid having a flame war and likewise the post was removed at SBI. Perhaps we should recommend the same here as i do not believe that a pissing contest will serve anyone's best interest.

jb
 
Cut the other HRT docs a break. It's legal gear! Better somewhat supervised and quality product than animal grade from Tiajuana. Other than that I agree 100%. I'm on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) w/ my family doc. I have a test level of 750 on 50mg/ week.
 
This squabble is about money, plain and simple. For a long time SWALE was given a monopoply to dispense advice and attract customers to his site All Things Male. This was essentially giving him free advertising. CEM now has a paying sponser with a diffferent HRT protocol than SWALES, and hence SWALE, rather than staying and dealing with the competition, goes from board to board slandering the company and the staff at CEM.

I and others have taken SWALE to task on many of his fringe theories, like shooting hCG on two succissive days. Research has shown that hCG used at this frequency is no more effective than shooting once. So the second shot is wasted.

The medical establishment, for better or worse, has taken the concept of male HRT to task. Mainstream doctors believe that except in clear cut cases of hypogonadism it is unwarranted. So SWALE, in using HRT to bring someones test from low normal to high normal is working ouside the realm of accepted medicine. For him to attack Palm Beach is certainly a case of calling the kettle black.

SWALE has been invited back to CEM to discuss these issues head to head with the MDs from Palm Beach. Instead he has declind, choosing as mentioned to scurry from one board to another slandering the company and CEM. That does a disservice to all anabolic board members, who simply wish to hear the facts presented and debated, not a one sided biased view of the subject.
 
While I am biased in favor of Swale, I believe that an interaction between the docs would have done a lot for TRT/HRT pts. Nandi's post is very pointed and I hope that Swale reconsiders his position and accepts the invitation back to CEM. It would be very refreshing to hear from others in the field on one forum and might attract others to join in such as Cenegenics et al..

Nandi, are you up for moderating that!!
 
Jawbone--The reason I had to leave is because I CANNOT be associated with docs who prescribe steroids under the guise of "TRT". It is not a matter of "a different protocol"--it is a matter of purposefully hurting patients in exchange for profit. But I have said all that repeatedly, and Nandi knows that.

There are NO legitimate HRT doctors out there who say 200mg per week is their standard dose. None. And I hang with the finest minds in the field, so I would know. And certainly none of them sell "programs".

And simply, I am not willing to waste my time constantly correcting their "experts". The comparison is therefore betwen charlatans who are willing to exchange patient care for profit, and a doctor who ONLY cares about the health of his patients. Hardly a pot and kettle situation to anyone who understands the medicine involved.

I am more disppointed in Nandi's misrepresentations than I can say. I would have expected more of someone as intelligent as he is. Did anyone else notice that he is now out on the other Boards, trying to do damage control? You will notice he has only two posts here previously. And for him to use verbage such as "scurrying" in describing how I have merely tried to answer everyone's questions all at once, and also defend my good name?

Nandi will profit personally from what goes on at CEM. Just some more food for thought. So the REAL financial issue is at their end, not mine. But it is painful for me to read such tripe from him. And I have, as we ALL have, so respected him in the past. Perhaps it would have been appropriate, given the relationship he and I have enjoyed, AND the free medical advice I have provided him, for him to contact me with any issues he has with me. For whatever reason or reasons, he did not take the high road on that one, either.

The fact is that the "free advertsing" Nandi speaks of cost me about 10 hours per week away from my medical practice. To get, on average, a couple of Consults? Let's do the math...

And he sure is working hard to sell people on these guys.

And my "fringe theories" have proven to be VERY effective in nearly all who have tried them. So now he wants to try to belittle the medicine I provide? And BTW, he is wrong about the second shot being "wasted". I added the second one in for several reasons. Funny, he never brought the subject up before, if that is what he thinks I would have been happy to explain it to him, as I always would.

Given the way I have been treated by them (you all know the story now), why on earth would I want to help them make money?

I appear on the Boards I do exclusively by invitation of the Owners/Administrators. I have never paid for a Sponsorship because I have never made enough from the Boards to make it financially wise. And I do not feel I should have to pay for the right to take precious time away from my medical practice in order to answer questions for people that I will never meet. I have chosen to do so simply because I am dedicated to improving mens' health, by spreading th egood word about testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), and also by trying to minimize the health consequences of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) usage. I owuld do MUCH better financially were i to concentrate on my office-based practice. However, I would not have nearly as much fun (usually).

I will be happy to provide any and all communications regarding this matter to interested parties. But I have to add the observation that anyone who would be interested enough needs to find other uses for their time. LOL.
 
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I myself have had dealings with PFJOY and I was very pleased with how I was treated... They were very gracious to accept lab tests from my own doctor and DID NOT charge a consultation fee at all.... I recieved the medicine WITH A PRESCRIPTION and get this... they sent it to me IN ADVANCE without payment or a credit card on file... I sent the money after I recieved the product. Yes, they do things differently than most clinics and yes, you can get an entire steroid cycle from them and get a prescription to go with it, making it entirely legal from the customers point of view. Of course a cycle is very expensive, but it is name brand, human grade with no legal hassles.

Ok, its not true testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or hrt... (I dont really know that they dont offer this, but lets assume for the sake of argument that they dont)
Swale on the one hand ONLY does testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and hrt at what he admits are low doses compared to steroid cycles. He is an expert and tweaks things for his patients... Good... But what about the guy who wants to do a cycle but does not want to do it based on learning from a website and ordering illegal drugs? Palm Beach Life Extension is there to do that...... Its just a different kind of service... No reason for Swale to blast them...... Both have their place.... And after awhile if my local doc does not get me straigtened out, I my hire Swale myslef as I prefer and experts opinion and training... but I am on a cycle now and I understand that he does not offer consultations to people on steroid cycles... at least I heard that... Comments welcome...
 
Thank you for chiming in, dustoff1. You verify EXACTLY what I have been saying: these guys are selling steroids. And THAT is precisely why I could no longer be involved with CEM. No legitimate physician COULD hang around after that.

There are NO medical indications for the administration of steroids, except in cases of legitimate wasting diseases. I pray you are not suffering from any of these.

Any physician who prescribes steroids is in direct violation of DEA and FDA Law. Do a little checking, and find out what Dr. Ramon Scruggs is going through for doing that. This is why I have never knowingly prescribed testosterone at dosages which took any of my patients above the top of physiological range, and never will. Not even once.

Once the Feds crack them, all of their patients' Medical Files will be confiscated. Do you thimnk the Feds are not watching these Boards? Think about that for a second.

I have merely spoken the truth that selling steroids under the guise of true HRT Medicine is immoral, unethical, and illegal. For that, I have been blasted.

I would hazard a guess that they do not know how to provide cutting edge PCP, either. They certainly are welcome to my protocols, though, as in the interests of mens' health, I have posted them openly, including here in a Sticky. Perhaps anyone who goes to them will demand it.

And for the record, I am trying to shy away from any more Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) Consults. I need to concentrate on my work of spreading the good word about testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine, and have a hard enough time getting conventional doctors to listen about it without the stigma their closed minds place on a lecturer who treats steroid athletes. I never provided steroids anyway, just monitored health and provided the ancillaries. I have been accepting a few here and there, if they talk me into it.
 
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