Tissue irritation question

[cody5001]

I was doing some research and came across this info which im going to copy and paste and post my question. If anyone can answer this Id appreciate it. just trying to learn all I can to have safe and successful cycles.

Tissue Irritation:

This is probably the most likely cause of post injection pain and the least serious. Tissue irritation is likely to start 12-24 hours after injection, pain can be mild to moderate depending on the level of tissue irritation and the volume injected. The injection site is likely to swell within the muscle, maybe red and likely to be warm and very firm to the touch. The pain and swelling will start to fade after 72 hours and can last over a week in the worst cases. The most likely causes of tissue irritation are:
The hormone crashes out of the solution in the depot. This causes crystallization of the hormone, this in turn places a lot of pressure on the nerve endings in the muscle belly causing knotting, swelling and pain - this is most common in long chain esters, high mg/ml concentration gear and gear compounded with less than idea oil blends.
A reaction to the acid compounds within the ester. With the metabolic breakdown of the ester attached to the hormone free form acids are released which can cause the muscle tissue rapid irritation at the injection site ***8211; this is most common with propionic acid of the propionate ester. Poor quality raw materials also liberate more freeform acids.

OK so my question is, that it says a likely cause of tissue irritation is that the hormone crashes out of the solution in the depot and causes the hormone to crystallize. So if this happens what happen as far as the injection. Is it wasted injection? is there long term problems? such as permanent damage to the muscle? I had what I believe to be this problem once in my first cycle earlier this year and it went away after about 3 or 4 days. I also would like to know if there is an way to prevent something like this. Sorry if to many question just trying to learn

 

[abusedyam]

Pip is nothing to worry about, it will get better with each pin... just gotta keep at 'er

 

[halfwit]

OK so my question is, that it says a likely cause of tissue irritation is that the hormone crashes out of the solution in the depot and causes the hormone to crystallize. So if this happens what happen as far as the injection. Is it wasted injection? is there long term problems? such as permanent damage to the muscle? I had what I believe to be this problem once in my first cycle earlier this year and it went away after about 3 or 4 days. I also would like to know if there is an way to prevent something like this. Sorry if to many question just trying to learn

I don't know if I agree that it's more common with the longer chain esters as it's the short esters like prop and acetate that tend to cause the most pip, but no - the injection is not wasted if the hormone crashes out of suspension once it's inside the muscle. I'm sure there is a small amount of damage created by this process, namely scar tissue over great periods of time - but given the entire process of building muscle is the destruction of muscle tissue and the subsequent rebuilding of this tissue, I don't really see an issue as long as you are consistently changing your injection sites.

I'm still of the opinion that the greatest source of pip is from unsteady hands ripping that piece of steel up and down like a miniature jigsaw into the tissue, causing actual trauma to the site. I've found that once you are no longer shaking like a leaf, and are able to take your time injecting that precious oil in a slow and consistent manner, pip becomes a thing of the past. Outside from the pressure of injecting large quantities of oil into my deltoid muscles, I have a hard time even remembering which site I used last as there isn't a little painful reminder.

My .02c

 

[cody5001]

I don't know if I agree that it's more common with the longer chain esters as it's the short esters like prop and acetate that tend to cause the most pip, but no - the injection is not wasted if the hormone crashes out of suspension once it's inside the muscle. I'm sure there is a small amount of damage created by this process, namely scar tissue over great periods of time - but given the entire process of building muscle is the destruction of muscle tissue and the subsequent rebuilding of this tissue, I don't really see an issue as long as you are consistently changing your injection sites.

I'm still of the opinion that the greatest source of pip is from unsteady hands ripping that piece of steel up and down like a miniature jigsaw into the tissue, causing actual trauma to the site. I've found that once you are no longer shaking like a leaf, and are able to take your time injecting that precious oil in a slow and consistent manner, pip becomes a thing of the past. Outside from the pressure of injecting large quantities of oil into my deltoid muscles, I have a hard time even remembering which site I used last as there isn't a little painful reminder.

My .02c

Thanks for your reply. Great info as always. I agree about injection technique. I'm left handed and it was my left delt that gave me trouble because of poor technique with my right hand. Something I'm going to have to get better at on my next cycle. Really glad to hear that its not a wasted injection to. gear isn't cheap and every pin counts.

 

[halfwit]

I've found that when doing delts, it's way easier to hold your pinning hand's elbow with your other hand - steadying it and allowing you to focus more on the pin than trying to keep your hand steady. Also keeping your elbow closer to your chest is more of a relaxed position, preventing muscles from having to work. Totally understand on the wasted injections, nobody wants those!

 

[2rude4u]

I don't know if I agree that it's more common with the longer chain esters as it's the short esters like prop and acetate that tend to cause the most pip, but no - the injection is not wasted if the hormone crashes out of suspension once it's inside the muscle. I'm sure there is a small amount of damage created by this process, namely scar tissue over great periods of time - but given the entire process of building muscle is the destruction of muscle tissue and the subsequent rebuilding of this tissue, I don't really see an issue as long as you are consistently changing your injection sites.

I'm still of the opinion that the greatest source of pip is from unsteady hands ripping that piece of steel up and down like a miniature jigsaw into the tissue, causing actual trauma to the site. I've found that once you are no longer shaking like a leaf, and are able to take your time injecting that precious oil in a slow and consistent manner, pip becomes a thing of the past. Outside from the pressure of injecting large quantities of oil into my deltoid muscles, I have a hard time even remembering which site I used last as there isn't a little painful reminder.

My .02c

I agree, except for maybe the steady hands. I've gotten fairly good at this doing at least 2 pins pw over the last 3-4 years, but that damn prop still hurts like a bitch every time. Lol...

Actually you are correct, that a lot of pip is caused by a constant vibration from less experienced users, but the type of esther is a big factor IMO.

 

[halfwit]

Yeah, I can't handle prop either - which is why I said short esters being worse initially. Funny thing is though, I have zero problems with acetate, so I wonder if it's just the prop ester itself?

 

[cody5001]

I've found that when doing delts, it's way easier to hold your pinning hand's elbow with your other hand - steadying it and allowing you to focus more on the pin than trying to keep your hand steady. Also keeping your elbow closer to your chest is more of a relaxed position, preventing muscles from having to work. Totally understand on the wasted injections, nobody wants those!

Im going to remember that next time I pin my left delt. makes a lot of sense.

 

[jkr2020788]

I try to think of everything on a medical level, as that is what I understand. As an oil is injected in the muscle alot of things happen. First off, as soon as the needle is inserted in the skin/muscle, there are histamines that are released in response to the new foreign body introduced. This is providing two things really. First, histamines are the starting position of the clotting cascade to stop the bleeding on a microscopic level. Second, histamines cause inflammation around the new injected foreign substance (the juice). This allows for increased blood flow to the area in attempts to absorb the oil for metabolism. In doing so, the smaller molecules are absorbed quicker, namely the oil itself. As the oil gets absorbed, the actual hormone is left behind in crystal form. As the crystals stay in, the body continues to produce histamines in attempts to break it down. The crystals in turn "scratch" the muscle and cause scarring until absorbed completely. Histamine (A2 histamine i believe) causes pain and swelling (hence why motrin is a good reliever of pain for this, if motrin doesnt help take benadryl)

 

[jkr2020788]

after rereading OPs question, i realized i answered nothing haha! That was a wasted few minutes typing that lol.

 

[ktown]

I enjoyed reading that Jkr that is some in depth thinking and all this time I thought it was just sore because I jabbed a piece of steel in there a lot more going on then I thought