Truth about plasma expanders rumor - Milos' comment on Chad's column in MD

[hhajdo]

http://chadnicholls.net/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=3ecd1fe34c29ffff;act=ST;f=15;t=6082

Chad, I just had a chance to read your “PLASMA EXPANDERS” column and it bothered me so much that I had to respond immediately.
You call yourself straight shooter, “tell it like it is” kind a guy…so explain me couple of things.
Does straight shooter truly “love fucking with a person’s head and tries to confuse someone as much as they can” –as you admit in your article.
As you and MD “always bring the truth in bodybuilding”- you are revealing the simple honest truth about crazy plasma expanders rumor.
You mention that after the Olympia 1997 one of your athletes (NASSER) told completely fabricated story of how he used 5 bags of Dextran (plasma expander) and Manitol (osmotic diuretic) to some nutritionist (ME).
Later both of you laughed your asses off and down deep (whatever that means?) as I believed the story.

I don’t need to remind you that I voluntarily shared priceless contest prep information that was crucial to make both of your careers.
I did it as a friend, with no charge…and I explained to both Nasser (end of 1994, beginning of 1995) and you (later in 1995) in great details something that even you mentioned Nasser called $100000.00 information.
Needles to say Nasser went from “happy to be at the Olympia” kind of competitor –to major contender for the title. Improvements he made on that program were first revealed at Houston Pro Invitational and Night Of Champions 1995 – he won both shows,
convincing everyone that Dorian would have nightmares preparing for the Olympia.
You on another hand got your chance with arrival of diuretic testing (1996).

I have witnessed with my own eyes that Nasser is capable of misinforming people (competitors) and than laughing about it. So, I believe now that this was the case at 1997 post Olympia Banquet. I hope you guys had really good laugh (deep down your asses as you so nicely put it).
My once good friendship with Nasser was terminated exactly because I could not accept how he treated other people (competitors) – putting them in dangerous situation, trying to boycott what they work so hard for…and than laugh about it.
I didn’t know that you are the same breed.
So many competitors sacrifice tremendously with the hope that this sport is going to get them somewhere. Usually this is their only egg in a basket and they would consciously sacrifice their health, family life, time, money –everything with that one goal in mind – to excel in bodybuilding and make a good living for their family.
They would go to reputable guys like you two – to take a chance to be confused or lied to?

Now, let’s just be analytical for the moment. How could rumor about plasma expanders ever start?
Nasser just woke up one day, found that word in dictionary and decided to use it?
No Chad –you told him. Just like you told me in 1996, when you were trying to return me a favor…and told me (in front of my wife Milamar, as she gave me paper and pen to write your suggestion).
I am holding that piece of paper (I can scan it and send it to you). It says DEXTRAN 5% solution, HESPAN 2.5% saline solution, MACRODEX 6% solution
Take 500 ml six hours apart. Total of 3 bottles.
Just before 1997 Mr. Olympia, you told Paul Dillett to call me and ask me if I would recommend you to be his advisor and if he should try “some IV stuff” –as Paul put it. I told him that personally I am afraid of IV administration, but there is valid theory behind it.
On that note, as you said that so-called guru (ME) should have common sense and immediately pick up plasma expander story to be bullshit.
Well. 1998 we spend a long time on the phone when you were trying to explain me every aspect of validity to use PE. On top you offered me “special kind” of MANITOL injection that you can bring to the NOC.
As I didn’t have money I did not buy it. Ronnie (working with you) shocked the World and won. As we were always good friends he did confessed to me that at that show he was cramping violently. He said – for the first time I was afraid I am going to die!

To reveal myself, as well –I used plasma expenders in many shows –experimenting until I got it down –perfectly.
I was successful in three shows –Ironman 1999 (placed second to Cormier, beating Cutler, Gunter, Priest, Darrem…), 1999 Arnold Classic (top 5, with 250 pounds –my heaviest competition weight), 1999 -2nd place in Canada…etc
So, there is a way of doing it…but in general I agree –it is not worth it.

It is only depressing to know, that you too - find amusing and funny playing with people’s health, careers…lives!
I can live with a great piece in my heart, as I know I only gave my best possible advice to anyone that ever asked me for one. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of people out there that I would like to ask IF I ever gave them misleading advice. I could have kept some very important secrets just for me – instead I helped many bodybuilders excelling to the point they were beating me. I don’t regret it for a second. What I regret is hearing something like this article and realize that you and Nasser were so grateful to me that you decided to play with me. Russian Roulette would also be just fine …
With friends like this who needs enemies?

 

[BiggieSwolls]

Nice post hhajdo. Awesome read.

 

[Deadlift]

Yup, good read. I'll bump it up.

 

[pyrros dimas]

Great post? I sure hope Chad responds too! BTW, Nasser is slowly rotting from inside out. Plus his shoulders are ruined. I believe that Nasser will never place in the top 8 and at any respectable show ever again. He's just spent...

 

[BiggieSwolls]

Great post? I sure hope Chad responds too! BTW, Nasser is slowly rotting from inside out. Plus his shoulders are ruined. I believe that Nasser will never place in the top 8 and at any respectable show ever again. He's just spent...

Thats if he ever does a show again. Theres rumors that he may be forced to retire. Unfortunately there is nothing substantial to back this but we will see.

 

[hhajdo]

Thats if he ever does a show again. Theres rumors that he may be forced to retire. Unfortunately there is nothing substantial to back this but we will see.

He's out of the NOC due to health problems...

http://flexonline.com/flex/breaking_news/05_21_03/noc.html

 

[hhajdo]

Tom Prince:

MILOS: Since you and I are friends, I hope I can interject in a way that eases how you feel following having read Chad's article in MD.

I remember very, VERY clearly, telling you that Nasser was fucking with you, and giving you bullshit info. We were backstage at the 1999 Night Of Champions when I told you. I told you Chad didn't use the plasma expanders on any of his athlete's.

I wish you hadn't chosen to believe Nasser, instead of me. BUt, being better friends with Nasser, I do understand.

Since Chad and I have talked about the plasma expanders at least 100 times, I'm going to answer your post of Chad's behalf. He doesn't need me to, but I can be impartial and fair to both of you.

At one point, Chad DID think the plasma expanders could be a plausible way to dry an athlete out, and pass the diuretic test. This was before he really had any experience in using it, and prior to him having any solid imperical evidence either for, or against, the plasma expanders.

Since I happen to familiar with the timeframe (1996), and series of how these events and conversations between you two took place, I can tell you with absolute certainty, YOU WERE TALKING TO CHAD BEFORE HE HAD A CHANCE TO REALLY RESEARCH THE PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF PLASMA EXPANDERS.

Further, Chad gave you the formula for how they might work, or should work. The truth, as you know, is that the plasma expanders do work.. for about 30 minutes or so. The problem ISN'T that they work, it's in the time frame in which they work.

The 30 minute window a person has to rid the bloodstream of the fluid that was just pulled out of the sub-q layer, will spill back into the sub-q layer in you don't get it out of your bloodstream. This is a brutally tough thing to master, and takes more precesion that would ever be worth all the work it takes. I think you know all this already.

When Chad discovered all this, he never came close to using them. Unfortuneately, you we're still beliveing Nasser's bullshit.

Myabe Chad should have come to you and told you that he knew Nasser was being an assole, and lying to you. But, if you know Chad, he doesn't butt into to other people's business. So, I decided to tell what Chad and Nassser wouldn't.

I though Nasser was being a shithead.. so I told you. And now you know why.

I understand you feel betrayed by a friend. But, I'm not sure you should be pointing a finger at Chad. Chad never intentionally tried to fuck with you. Nasser did.

As always, you can call to talk to me about any of this. -tp

 

[hhajdo]

Milos:

Tom,
I hope you know that I respect you as a person and great bodybuilder.
I appreciate that you took the time to respond (wonder why CHAD didn’t?).
But, Chad’s article in MD was beyond disturbing and if you REALLY read it from very beginning this is a bottom line:
He (Chad) wants to clarify crazy little rumor about bodybuilders using plasma expanders.
He emphasize that he knew that one of his athletes had a conversation with certain nutritionist (by the way at that point I was ONLY a pro bodybuilder trying to do my job – compete as much as I can to make a living) and he was aware that his “jokester” athlete told me completely fabricated story.
Instead of making an effort and coming to me (like you did in 1999) and telling me the truth - he indeed LAUGHED HIS ASS OFF AND DOWN DEEP!
What does that tell you? Than he admits also to: QUOTE: “ I enjoy a great subject of controversy as much as anyone, AND TRULY LOVE FUCKING WITH A PERSON’S HEAD (the more I can confuse someone the better)!”
What a great person to take advice from? And I did, as I trusted him, just like I trusted Nasser…as I believe if nothing else I gave them insight on some contest preparation secrets THEY NEVER NEW ABOUT (until that point, I guarantee it). Secrets that was crucial in both of their careers.
I certainly wouldn’t doubt Nasser after he told me EXACTLY what Chad recommended me before (but I was afraid to try it).
Nasser’s condition at 1997 Mr. Olympia was unbelievable and I was first to say that he deserved to win. I even sent the fax to Dorian telling him that, with detailed analysis why I believe Nasser was a better bodybuilder that day (irrelevant here, but I do want to mention that).
So, what would you (or any competitor) do in my position?
Chad knowing possible DANGEROUS consequences and he could prevent them…but…
If all that was fabricated (in 1997) why would he told me exactly the same procedure for 1998 NOC?
Maybe you don’t know that, but for 1998 Night of Champions I was using plasma expenders the way Chad was instructing me over the phone. Only thing that he changed it this time around was – using specially made Manitol that only he had, and I could get it from him in New York.
Well, at that point I was broke, could not afford it and I decide it to buy manitol in pharmacy for fraction of his coast.
I used plasma expanders, looked great when I went to athletes meeting (around 11am or 12 –noon), and sure enough by the time of prejudging I spilled over worst possible way. My very possible top 5 finish (I managed to beat Matarazzo -3rd at NOC, 2 weeks before in San Francisco, without PE) become wishful thinking (placed 11th).
Anyway, believe it or not – when you finally told me the truth after 1999 NOC, I never touch it again.
So, I did take your word over Nasser’s, but it was 2 years to late.

If you see the time I posted my previous post –it was around 2AM…after I did my cardio at midnight. That’s when I picked up MD to “kill the time”.
I was so outraged that I had to respond, and quite honestly I still am.
Thank you for taking the time Tom, it means a lot to me. I know that YOU care, unlike other people I called out to respond.



Chad:

First of all - I want Milos and everyone to know - this is the first time today (5/22) that I have even seen this post - so I apologize for taking so long to respond to it.

Secondly - Milos - you don't realize how big of an idiot you've just made yourself look like! You are so far off base here. Maybe Nasser did talk to you about the PE back then - BUT - you WERE NOT THE NUTRITIONIST Nasser spoke to at the Olympia Banquet in 1997 - Just like you stated above - I didn't even remotely think of you as a "nutritionist" back then, I thought of you as a pro body builder - so you've already jumped to conclusions on that point. And, if you want to know the reason we laughed our asses off - the person Nasser told his "whopper" to - and it was a whopper! Took it to heart and actually wrote out a plan from everything Nasser told him (and let me tell you the amounts that Nasser made up were just ridiculous!!!! - and faxed this "plan" out to several people trying to pass it off as his own - now, Milos - does that sound like you? I don't think so!! I know you would've picked up on the complete Bullshit immediately because it was just like I said, ridiculous!

But, since YOU opened the can of worms, we can definitely talk about this now. --The deal with Paul was so much of an untruth I don't know where to begin - that makes NO sense whatsoever that I would ask you to talk to Paul about having me work with him. First of all - I had been friends with Paul since 1992 - as he and Kim turned pro together at the North American and that's where our friendship began and from that point over the years, we started a working relationship. The truth is, I actually began working with Paul before Nasser - actually I started working with Nasser briefly after Paul - but I had already been friends with Paul for a long time - so I'm not sure where you got that story?? Maybe you and I talked about Paul and he and I working together - but to be honest with you - I have no idea where your story came from - still scratching my head on that one!

So, let's get to the Plasma expanders - if you are going to tell the truth - get it straight - the first time you and I talked about it was at the Caveman event - I believe it was May of 1997? Could've been 1996 - can't quite remember - but I do know that it had NOTHING to do with Manitol - the only product I had brought up and was looking into at the time was Albumin. I had told you that I had found this product - that it was a way around the diuretic test - that it looked like it was something that could work very good. And there was no "joking" behind that. When I first looked into this - I thought, yes, PE could be a very good possibility - however, the more I looked into it - and I've laid all this out in my article - they just don't work - as there are too many other variables involved.

Now you and I talked a couple of other times about PE, but nothing was laid out until you and I talked on the phone before the NOC. --And, at that time, I told you I wasn't using it - however, I did tell you that I had a special version of the Manitol - which was something that a friend of mine had come up with - but it ended up not working worth a shit either. However, I thought it would work fantastic and was told that it would work fantastic - I even told you the whole "basis" behind it - and you went to Victor Conte and told him and he told you he could make the same thing.

The '98 NOC was the first year I worked with Ronnie - we didn't use ANY PE - Manitol - special blends - Albumin - NOTHING - we used the diuretic that I use today - except back then it was a little different version than now - a little stronger and faster, which is something that has been changed over the years. So, the only time I actually ever laid out anything for you was over the phone before the NOC and you basically told me you had Dextran and Manitol. And - I even told you over the phone that they didn't work! --But you kept insisting that you thought Nasser was using them - and I told you straight out NO BULLSHIT - NOT TO USE THEM!! Seems as though you don't remember any of this? You kept insisting over the phone "hypothetically" - what if I would do this or that??? And I basically told you how they would work and before the conversation was over - I specifically told you I would NOT use the PE - to that you told me you were going to talk to Victor, because he could do something with the Manitol.

Now, if you want to put everything out there for everyone to read - I was NOT referring to YOU as the nutritionist - and I was not laughing behind YOUR back! I knew that Nasser had spoken to you about them - but I didn't think he had laid out amounts anything like that - I was referring to the person at the Olympia Banquet - which wasn't you - I repeat Milos, it WASN'T YOU!!! However, the person I referred to at one of the shows that had "ruptured veins" that looked like a drug addict - was YOU! At the NOC - and Tom Prince even tried to tell you that none of my athletes were using the PE and he said you still didn't believe him. You even came up to me after pre-judging at that show - showed me your arms complaining about them - and I told you again at that point that I thought you were crazy for using them and that NONE of my athletes were using them.

Now, as far as me trying to keep everyone confused - absolutely! It's in my best interest and in the best interest of every single one of my athletes - Ronnie, Flex, all of these guys had paid me LOTS of money to get them in shape - so why would I go around just giving everyone their information? Doesn't really make sense. And, for you to think that by saying that I would intentionally put information out there to hurt people - you are insane! I would hope that YOU would have more common sense than that. People who know me know that I just don't put ANY information out there - I just don't say anything - I keep most everything to myself. And, the truth is, it's really nobody's business. Everyone is different, everyone gets ready differently and doing differnt things and it's just no one's business what these guys are doing. There's a lot of people within the industry that need to practice the "silence" a little more - as too many go on and on and just run their mouths endlessly - and before you get upset and jump to conclusions AGAIN - I'm not referring to you here!

I will say, that the one ironic thing I found through this entire scenario was that YOU, Shawn and Kevin were the ones calling Wayne complaining - yet out of all of my athletes and you three- You, Milos, were the only one using them? HHHMMM?? That's a very interesting point, probably nothing I would've ever mentioned - and didn't in my article - but if we are clearing the air here - oh well. It was at the same time that Shawn called Wayne and wanted to have me arrested upon checking in to the Southgate Hotel and searched at the '98 Olympia. He swears that he didn't call Crime Stoppers, but really - what's the difference between that and him calling Wayne wanting me arrested upon check in and searched at the hotel. Same scenario to me.

So, during this whole ordeal - you were the one using the PE. End of story! I would suggest - next time, you send me a private e-mail or discuss this with me before you decide to air everything - especially something like this where you were so off base on SO many points. For some reason you must feel I have it in for you??? I told you - I don't have anything against you - so I don't know why everytime I say something or write something - you take it as a dig against you?

CHAD--

 

[hhajdo]

Milos:

Chad, as you believe I am off base on so many points and I made myself look like a big idiot, here are some more idioticall (but truthful) facts.
And before I start – I don’t know where you are getting that I feel you have something against me?
If I do I would be first one to tell you.
But, point number one:
I feel so much better that you and Nasser did not trick me, but someone else.
I am honored to be in group of people you don’t want to fuck with their heads and lives. I just wonder WHO is that other pour nutritionist?
Does that really matter or change your character?
You did the same horrible thing and laugh about it, only difference is (supposedly) –it wasn’t me!
However, I did spoke to Nasser, you and Tom knew about it…and crazy amounts of plasma expenders that Nasser was suggesting –was exactly 5 bags of PE, starting on Thursday and continuing on Friday –six hours apart. So, as you wrote in MD –it was indeed amount you would recommend.
Point number two: You don’t know where I got the story about Paul asking me things that I said.
Couple of weeks before 1997 Mr. Olympia he called me and told me that you encouraged him to call me and ask me what I think of plasma expenders and would I use them. I did not make up the story –it was precise time, date and conversation that took place.
Point three: It was the Caveman guest posing –exactly on April 12th 1997 when you and I talked (with our wives). I still have saved exact piece of paper with your recommendations –I have a proof I can show you – and there was no talk about albumin, but exact plasma expenders that I already quoted in previous post.
Half liter of either Macrodex, Dextran or Hespan –every 6 hours! So, get your facts straight!
That was obviously BEFORE 1997 Olympia. My conversation with you about 1998 NOC was certainly after the ’97 O, and as you were telling me that plasma expanders did not work ALONE, you told me that I had to top it off with manitol!
At that time I told you that manitol is highly available and cheap – you insisted that SPECIAL manitol that only you have should be used.
It was concentrated form in injection, and one injection coast $500. You offered to bring me to New York, but I told you that I could not afford it (sad but true) and manitlol in pharmacy is $5 –so I choose to use that one.
I also told you that I have pharmacist who could get me manitol powder, that seemed to interest you, but we left it at that. BTW, that was not Victor Conte, that was local compounding pharmacist I was friends with.
Now, if you went to all that talk about what should I use for 1998 NOC, how come you didn’t offer me special diuretic you had for Ronnie?
Possibly I would be interested in that – beats poking yourself with IV etc?
For 1998 Mr. Olympia I did tell Wayne (as he asked me) everything I knew about plasma expanders. As Wayne was talking to both Shawn and Kevin they complained about unfair advantage your guys have – I didn’t. I did send lengthy fax to Wayne explaining the whole deal with PE, and he asked me if there was a test for it. I told him that indeed it was –but it could not be urine test –instead it had to be blood test. If you remember he announced that blood test was going to take a place on Saturday (interestingly, it was stopped by Rafael Santoja’s suggestion…I don’t want to even assume anything).
At athletes meeting Flex challenged me to come foreword and I said in front of everyone –that YES, I used plasma expanders earlier that year, that I almost bleed to death, and that I have nothing to hide. Does he? He swared that he did not use ANY diuretic and that he could use lying detector test. Should we comment on that? So, as you are pointing out that I was the only one using them –I publicly admitted already. Shawn and Kevin had a problem, and I understand why.
Some people are true athletes -and they would not want to have any advantage –but instead take up on opponent that is equally informed (supplied or whatever you want to use in this instance). Your athletes had advantage of being able to use something that would get them dryer (therefore more competitive) and these two didn’t. As you said –you keep everything to yourself, you don’t give any information, and some people (me?) should practice silence. When you wanted my help (back in 1995) I told you that I know you are helping one guy I particularly didn’t want to know this information, but you insured me that if I tell you it is only going to be used for you and Kim! Obviously, you put just about every athlete that I know off on program that I gave you (or slightly modified).
And, if you really want me to reveal more of that –I can. I choose not to be silent, and shared my secrets with just about anyone that asked me. Including other trainers that trained other athletes. Charles Glass, Chris Acedo, Charles Poliquin.etc. As far as pro bodybuilders there are too many to mention. And why I did that? To help them, not to make business out of it. It is your prerogative how you want to do your business. I choose NOT to be silent or secretive.
I don’t know if I missed anything…

 

[hhajdo]

Chad:

Milos- you are obviously way too carb depleted because you have many of your facts messed up and don't remember correctly. We'll start with April 12, 1997 - first of all, we didn't talk "with our wives" - as Kim was in Ohio with Ronnie Coleman that same weekend for a guest appearance - I was on my own at that show. I remember exactly when we talked about this - we were leaving the show - walking out of the Cave by the exit - and it was only albumin, as that is all I was looking into at the time. You may have a piece of paper with notes on it - but it wasn't from that weekend - I believe it wasn't until the USA's later in the year that we had even discussed more in depth about different types of PE.

Now, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying about Paul - but I read it as I told you to call him? I'm not saying Paul didn't call you - but I never told him to call you and discuss that - he may have called you and asked you about PE trying to find out information that I had discussed with you or trying to see if I was actually using them - we are more than happy to call Paul on this - I can tell you I have never used them on Paul - never offered to use them on Paul - so I'd like to hear how he remembers this.

About this whole fabricated story - I just don't understand why you are so pissed at me - Nasser is a grown man - I don't pull the strings or have any control over what he says (or what any of my athletes say for that matter)! And you are still trying to imply YOU are the nutritionist - GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD - YOU ARE NOT! It was at the '97 Olympia banquet - Nasser, Bisera, Kim and I - and Paul were at a table - the nutritionist came to the table and started whispering with Nasser - and guess what - that person WASN'T YOU!! When the person left, Nasser told everyone about what they whispered about and how ridiculous it was and we all laughed - because it was just so ridiculous that we couldn't believe this guy would actually believe it. Milos - I remember a time when Flex Wheeler told people he ate cat food - so do you believe it - no - I thought that was absurd, but obviously funny at the same time. Now, even though you weren't the guy at the banquet - even if Nasser would've told you to take 13 bags total of something - I think even you could agree that sounded silly - how could you even humanly take 13 bags of something in 2 days if you are supposed to take it every 6 hours - you couldn't! The answer to this is just a little common sense -

I even told you immediately that Nasser wasn't doing this - as I told everyone else - this is the main reason why I wrote this article - because after all these years - people still believe this crazy story. The article isn't to poke fun at people - but to educate people and let them know PE doesn't work for body building - so if you are trying to turn this into a self-pitty crusade - just stop it right now. No one made you use this stuff - you did it -even after myself and others told you not to.

Now, about the Manitol powder - you told me over the phone with our first conversation that you could get manitol powder. I told you that WAS NOT what I had. I told you that I had access to a more concentrated but condensed version of it. It was within that same week that we spoke again on the phone and Victor told you he could make the same thing, but that it would be a very expensive process and you specifically used Victor's name during this conversation. As far as poeple keeping their mouths shut - I said that I wasn't talking about you - you just read into things WAY too much - I think we both actually know who I am referring to and he is VERY vocal about what he does with the athletes he works with - and is even proud about telling anyone who will listen as to what they do - does this sound like you - I don't know maybe you do this too - I hope not!

You really have to ask why I didn't tell you about the diuretic I had? For one, you were specifically asking about PE and Manitol and secondly, I get paid on how well my athletes do, so think of it this way - why am I going to volunteer information they are paying good money for? It's not fair that some pay and some get it for free, right? This is how I make my living and as well, I want to see my athletes place as high as possible - why do I want to give others advantages over my athletes? That would make me an idiot. And, by the way - you wanted to know why I went to all that trouble advising you on things - it was because you called me and asked. If you wouldn't have called - it's not like I would've called and said "Hey Milos, guess what" - and forced all this info on you - I've said many times before - and you get upset with me about the fact that I just don't go around telling people things.

I think the bottom line is Nasser told you something - you chose to believe him over evryone else - when everyone, including myself, told you not to do what he advised you on - or that he was not doing what he told you about. I think you feel you have been fooled and it has embarrassed you - but that's not anyone's fault but yours. I don't know what Nasser told you - that's between you two - I know I NEVER told you amounts of anything that Nasser used - because I told you from the git go that Nasser wasn't using the PE. And, as far as people crying foul, saying that someone has an unfair advantage - because someone thinks they have found something to give them the edge - that's just the sport - any sport - and life for that matter - anyone in life or in sport is going to use what they can to get and stay on top - it's human nature - and especially in this sport to persecute others for trying to get the edge is crazy - It's been said on every show about sports if an athlete can do something that will give him only 10% of an advantage over everyone else - they will look for it or do it - this sport is an open book - all or none - you can't discriminate against one thing - but list others as okay.

You actually contradict yourself as you talk about wanting to help everyone, wanting to give everyone - even your competitors the "secrets", however, you were very adament about wanting me to not give any of your secrets to Porter Cotrell - do you remember this? And, I obliged you - although I was friends with Porter, I never told him abou the Insulin or anything - as like I mentioned before - I don't feel the need to tell everyone everything. As far as the insulin debate - that's done and over with - I'm not going to get into it again.

So, there's the exact truth to everything. You may like your story better, but the truth is the truth. That article doesn't have a damn thing to do with you - you never even would've been brought into this - if you only would've asked me about it before airing this all over the board.



Milos:

Well Chad, the reason I am writing in details is because I want everyone to know exact truth.
I would give you one thing that I am NOT certain about. I was quite sure that Kim was with you, and if she wasn’t – that is the only thing I overlooked.
You were right about talking to me as we were leaving the show (Saint Louis).
Your wife might not be there, but mine was and she is the one that gave me that piece of paper and I don’t think I need to read it to you again – I did it twice already. I am very systematic; I organize everything, classify, write everything down and save journals – so I wouldn’t forget.
I did not write if Kim was with you at the time – and that is possibly my mistake.
Now, on your comment “BTW –why would I went to all the trouble advising you on things –it was because you called me and asked. If you wouldn’t –it’s not like I would’ve called and say –Hey Milos guess what- and forced all this info on you!”
Really?
Well Chad, how and why did we start our conversation in Saint Louis in a first place?
I stopped you and asked you – Chad did you discover America or some Plasma Expanders?
At that time I was leaving with Milamar, saw you there (I thought Kim was there- sorry)…said hello –AND YOU STOPPED ME AND TOLD ME-“Hey Milos –guess what (OK not in those words) – I know how you can beat diuretic test!
I had no idea about plasma expanders, never thought of using them –so why would I ever start asking questions (as you imply that you only told me because I asked).
It is interesting choice of words that you used in your last post, but indeed –you did force all this info on me!
To remind you – I knew about 4 diuretics that I could use (not on the list).
And, yes – I told dozens of IFBB professionals which ones they can use, so they would be able to pass a test.
I had no need for plasma expanders, and only reason I ever used it is- I first heard it from you and your exact recommendation was repeated to me by Nasser.
And if you read my last post I clearly state –that as you convinced me to give you my secrets –I specifically told you that one guy in particular I don’t want to get this info –and that was Porter Cottrell. So I don’t see how I contradicted myself.
Bottom line is this Chad.
You publicly admitted that you were aware that someone (not me apparently, but a human being) got wrong and extremely dangerous advice. You even know that he was faxing this program to who knows how many people.
You laughed about it instead of stopping it.
How many people could (did?) have serious health consequences because Nasser thought it was funny, and you had a blast laughing your ass off?
I am not an issue here. You think very hard about this one single statement. All you talk about is your business, trying to find some excuse or explanation, but again – what is important is – you didn’t stop some nutritionist and disease (death) of many innocent competitors was at stake.
As far as everything else – I might be carb depleted but I am not brain dead. Truth and facts could be easily concluded by reading our posts. One thing I was uncertain about it –I pointed out. Everything else is fact / truth – guaranteed.

 

[pyrros dimas]

Milos got very simply got caught up in a head game and got mind fucked. He was 'probably' trying to weasel info out of Chad or so it 'apeears'. If he wanted help/info from Chad, then he should have enlisted and paid for Chad's services. It;'s that simple. That would have never started this 'he said', 'she said' BS.

I feel no remorse for Milos. Chad on the other hand has a business to run (I'm not even going to get into the ethics of that for that's a whole other topic).

Milos - This is a very risky game! If you can't afford to take the risk, then GET OUT!