2nd cycle proposal, seeking approval/critiques

[T0k3z]

Hello all,

Putting together a 2nd cycle and seeking advice please feel free to comment.

History:

(1) previous cycle Test E @ 500mg/wk, 12 weeks
started cycle at ~180 12-14% bf
ended at ~205 15%bf (pre PCT, bf% is only an estimation given the water and the information that follows)

experienced injury (3) weeks into PCT which put me out of commission for the next couple months
due to inability to train depression set in and diet fell off (finished PCT maintaining solid diet, no training final week onward)
pct ended in early september 2013
ate like a "normal person" from september-mid January 2014 and did not train (4.5 months, by far my longest time away from either dieting or training since I began just over 4 years ago)

Current:

resumed regiment in mid-January starting at ~190 and noticeably fatter than I was at 205 end cycle
been cutting ever since and getting as lean as possible, with goal to begin lean bulking cycle in either September or October
sitting at ~163 and 7-8%bf (still gaining strength albeit slowly, obviously nowhere near as strong as I was post cycle at 205, but have made significant improvements everywhere since I resumed at 190)
as expected calories are quite low at this point after being in a deficit for some time, macros are roughly the following 200p 120c 65f, (2) refeeds/wk @ 200p 300c 35f
will continue to cut slowly through June, I will be on vacation in Europe for the entire month of July but plan to keep diet and training in check as well as possible
when I get back I will find my maintenance and begin a reverse diet through August and even September if needed
used 3j through my first cycle and plan to style this upcoming lean bulk after what I learned from him
then the fun begins (either September or October)

Cycle Goal: add as much lean mass as possible with very minimal fat gain

Proposed Cycle:

wk 1-12 Test Prop @ 200mg eod
wk 3-12 Anavar @ 50mg ed (willing to run this wk 1-12 and wondering if OK considering mild effects on liver, will run for wk 6-12 only if recommended)
wk 1-11 NPP @ 115mg eod

wk 1-12 Aromasin @ 12.5mg eod (will adjust if needed)
wk 1-12 HCG @ 500iu/wk
wk 1-12 Liver Support (still researching what to use)

PCT
begins 3 days after final pin
Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

profit

 

[ketogenicbulldog]

I wouldn't even bother with a 19 nor right now.

If I were you I'd do
test prop 150 EOD
Anavar 2-12 @75/day (and make sure to get lipids checked after 6-7weeks...this will determine if you can run it for 10 weeks since everyone is different)

Liver support: take NAC all the way through

* It's important to note that you NEED to make sure that your var is actually var. That means a rock solid source. It's often faked and that could be much more detrimental over 10 weeks of use and i wouldn't recommend this dose for this length with any other oral.

I don't want to see a "is this ____ (insert random google searched lab) g2g" thread started by you. Choose a reputable source and don't cross your fingers and hope for the best.

 

[ketogenicbulldog]

And diet will determine how much lbm/fat you put on. It's hard to put on the most lbm as you can in that time frame while staying as lean as you are now. If you want to stay really lean then aim for 1lb/wk gain maybe a little more. Get into the high 170's around 9%.

Most people don't realize how much a difference 10lbs of actual muscle makes. There is too much worrying about gaining 20-30lbs (half which is a combination of fat and water...besides the random freak)

You already know the test will work for you so var should give you another level of hardness/vascularity while at that low bf%

 

[traps09]

I freakin like it! Only things i would do differently is run the NPP the whole time w/the prop and the var weeks 7-12.
Have fun!

 

[T0k3z]

Thank you for the responses guys. @bulldog, I know I have a good amount of room for growth but why would you pass on the NPP? I will definitely be getting BW Pre, Mid, and Post cycle. Also, I have heard that var is probably the most widely faked out there, I had a source in mind but upon further research it's not looking so good. I have plenty of time so I am not in a huge rush but I do want to plan things out, PM anyone?

 

[ketogenicbulldog]

I suggest adding 1 compound at a time to get to know exactly what is doing what. I think var will give you a better look and considering you have no 19 nor experience I wouldn't put deca/npp in

 

[T0k3z]

Understood. Given that, this question is somewhat moot but could be useful later on. I'm assuming Aromasin alone will be fine for the prop and var, however, if in the future I decided to run npp, would I need to add prami? Also, since I'm running 2+ compounds this time should I definitely run HCG @ 500iu/wk for wk 1-12? Last time around I just blasted HCG during the ten days or so leading up to PCT.

 

[ketogenicbulldog]

General consensus is that it's easier to not put your junk through atrophy/hypertrophy...just keep them going throughout your cycle (hcg @500/wk)

Next time around you should have prami on hand correct. Start at a moderate dose and work your way up with any first timer on a 19nor

 

[oldmusclemike]

And diet will determine how much lbm/fat you put on. It's hard to put on the most lbm as you can in that time frame while staying as lean as you are now. If you want to stay really lean then aim for 1lb/wk gain maybe a little more. Get into the high 170's around 9%.

Most people don't realize how much a difference 10lbs of actual muscle makes. There is too much worrying about gaining 20-30lbs (half which is a combination of fat and water...besides the random freak)
You already know the test will work for you so var should give you another level of hardness/vascularity while at that low bf%

I will just key in on that in bold. Remember that a man can only gain a ,maximum of 15 lbs. of LMM I one year. In one (1) year I said so figure out what you gain in three months and anything over 6-8 lbs is not muscle. If a guy were to be competing he would see that from show to show when he diets down for weigh in and show time.

 

[ketogenicbulldog]

^ Maybe the avg man but even that i'm not sure of. If you are nowhere near your genetic potential you can for sure gain much more with decent genetics.

I've experienced it three times all completely natural and you'll be hard pressed to convince most guys it's not easily possible with a spot on diet never mind while using AAS


If you've been at it for a long time, unless you've been wasting years of training and eating which is usually the case, then it will be nearly impossible.

 

[oldmusclemike]

^ Maybe the avg man but even that i'm not sure of. If you are nowhere near your genetic potential you can for sure gain much more with decent genetics.

I've experienced it three times all completely natural and you'll be hard pressed to convince most guys it's not easily possible with a spot on diet never mind while using AAS


If you've been at it for a long time, unless you've been wasting years of training and eating which is usually the case, then it will be nearly impossible.

You are correct for a young man that has not reached hi natural genetic potential. Then also given steroid use at this time, and maybe more. I will get some data on this.

Before I continue with the search I would like to know your age when you say you experienced this to happen with you? Also did you start lean and diet down to a show ready competitive weight so you know where you stood with this LMM. Are you a competitor? You answer and I'll get some data get data , OK, cool

 

[oldmusclemike]

Very quickly since I said I would get you some info, I came up with this man's study. I know only one or two guys here, but I world like to see what info and proof you have to differ with my experience as a past competitor and a trainer in my own, owned gym in the 80's. I will always stay teachable and approachable as well as admitting when I am wrong. So take a look and while your at it please tell answer my questions on my previous post. This is not medical references for now.

How Fast Can You Build Muscle Chart #1:
The McDonald Model
A fitness writer and author Lyle McDonald who also coaches bodybuilders on nutrition came up with the following equation for how fast you can build muscle:

Notice how the estimated 2 pounds per month is only roughly 0.5lb per week, which is not a very fast pace. But over a year, that 2lb per month adds up to a solid 24lb of muscle. Certainly one, or more of the five factors above can affect the pace of muscle gain upward, or downward. While the values in the preceding chart apply to males, Lyle recommends females use roughly half of these values (e.g. 10-12 pounds in the first year of proper training).
How Fast Can You Build Muscle Chart #1: The McDonald Model

Years Training / Potential Muscle Gains in One Year

1 = 20-25
2 = 10-12
3 = 5-6
4+ = 2-3

Now The Alan Aragon Model This means a 130lb teenager who never has lifted weights might gain 1.3-1.95 pounds of muscle per month (15-23 pounds per year) in a year with a great lifting program and eating plan. After a year, he***8217;s now at around 155lb and might be capable of gaining 0.77-1.55 lbs per month (9-18 pounds per year.
After another year of proper training and smart eating, he***8217;s now at 170lb and is in the advanced lifter category. From here on out, he may only gain 0.5-1 lb per month, at which point the closer he approaches his maximum muscle potential, the slower the rate of muscle growth. That***8217;s why most of the big guys at the gym have been lifting for a good 5-10 years

For now this should suffice as a rule of thumb and since we usually are talking to people mature over 25 and lifting more that one year this is my reason for my statement.

Now unless you have dieted down , bulked up and dieted down as in comp you would not know this. Think of the guys competing you think they gain more than 15 pounds of lean MM in a year , show to show.. Really think now

 

[oldmusclemike]

I will come back to this thread after 12:00 tonight . Gotta go login off... OMM

 

[oldmusclemike]

Well WTF, I'm back and since no rebuttal we all can see that I'm right with facts. So you guys keep on with the Bull-crap and I gained this and that when it all comes down to Lean Muscle Mass. Lean muscle mass is what it is where it's at.

The bloated ones look good in their cloths to the untrained eye but take off that shirt. All what you want, bloat or true LMM. Look at a guy ready for a show in his cloths.. huh you say. Let him take off his shirt and you stand I awe.