First Cycle Rollercoaster Help - Thanks!

[PBateman]

Stats: 32yrs, 5’6”, 150lbs, endurance athlete for 17 years

To make a long story short last year I had a rough year. Started a new job, moved to a new city, gained about 35 lbs (a lot for someone my size). I continued to train but did very little weight training. I was probably running 15 miles per week but still went up to 160 lbs or around 25% body fat.

This year I decided I’d turn myself around. I normally hover around 15% body fat at a weight of 140-145. I’ve always wanted more lean mass and less fat but my body just won’t go that way no matter how much I lift.

It took me a few months to get back to lifting what I used to and was running an additional 20 mi/week. My lifting plateaued (as it always has) and I knew I could lose more weight by running but I didn’t want that tiny runner’s body anymore. So my cycle began. I have a biomedical engineering background and so wanted to be very careful. My inventory included:

Testosterone Ethanate 5 10ml vials 250mg/ml
Novaldex 25mg x 50 caps
Aromasin 25mg x 50 caps
Arimidex 2mg/ml x 30ml
Clomid 25mg x 100 caps
HGC 5000 UI 2 Vials
Finasteride 1mg x 90 pills
[Tren - but don't plan on using it]


Now I didn’t expect to use all of it but I wanted a solid stockpile.

Here’s what I’ve taken so far pinning on Monday & Thursday, taking 1mg finasteride per day:

Week 1 – 600mg Test,
Week 2 – 450mg Test
Week 3 – 450mg Test, 25 mg Aromasin
Week 4 – 450mg Test, 0.5mg Arimidex
Week 5 - Now

I work out 5 days a week. I do 30 minutes of aerobic per day and lift various muscle groups per day 30-45 min of lifting.

WEEK 1 I felt AWESOME. High libido, good strength, I’m and just generally felt great. I’m also always hungry!

WEEK 2 was much the same. I had some night sweats but nothing that was too much of a bother. I just feel great!

WEEK 3 I realized I was getting bloated and my feet were in immense pain but only after running. I kept drinking water but nothing helped. I then took 1 cap of 25mg Aromasin. I was able to run more and my bloating went down, but so did everything else; my energy, my enthusiasm and my libido. The change was almost instantaneous. I swore never to take Aromasin again. I was feeling great then suddenly like crap! My appetite also went down.

Then end of WEEK 4 comes around and I find I’m bloating again but I’m also feeling better. The side effects of the aromasin were subsiding. This time I decided to take a different path and took a tiny dose 0.5mg of Arimidex (exactly 7 days later). Suddenly my libido was gone, I was unmotivated and felt depressed. Again it was almost instantaneous. The worst symptom is that even when I work up my libido I can’t finish no matter what. Now I have no hunger whatsoever and literally need to force-feed myself.

My goal is to put on more muscle and get that body fat down. It’s just difficult to feel like I’m doing well when I’m bloated. I have seen gains in muscle but I’m puffy there's no definition. Although I’ve lost body fat my waist hasn’t gotten any smaller. I also eat clean and meticulously watch my sodium intake.

So what do you guys think? How could the AIs have such a profound effect on my body? I have no other side effects from the Test so an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is definitely not needed. Should I just deal with the bloating? If so, will I lose it during my post cycle therapy (pct)? Is there any other way I can get my bloating down?

I feel like I need to stay away from AIs. There’s no reason other than the bloating to take them. The Test makes me feel so awesome but the low doses of AIs make me feel worse than I ever have before? I was thinking maybe I took the arimidex too soon after the aromasin? What should I do next? Would adding Tren help?

I know this is a lot of info. Thanks for the help!

 

[Inhuman2012]

Do not add tren! Again do not add tren! If I were you I would cut the ai! If symptoms subside stay on that schedule. If you still have symptoms you know you we're wrong! What's up with the hcg I didn't hear you say your using it!

 

[PBateman]

I felt that I'd add in the HCG this week or the next. Again, the side effects were fairly mild. It's the side effects from what I'm using to try and cure the others that are devastating.

I'm just confused because I've read a TON of scientific literature on AIs and I can't find anyone who's had such a strong reaction. This past week there was a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine where men were actually given AIs. One with Testosterone replacement and one with testosterone suppression. Regardless of the results NONE of the subjects had such a strong response to AIs and they were taking much more of them.

I was hoping someone else might have the same reaction or a better cure for bloating. I really feel pretty good (without the AIs).

Also, I won't take the Tren this time round. Maybe next year.

 

[Inhuman2012]

I felt that I'd add in the HCG this week or the next. Again, the side effects were fairly mild. It's the side effects from what I'm using to try and cure the others that are devastating.

I'm just confused because I've read a TON of scientific literature on AIs and I can't find anyone who's had such a strong reaction. This past week there was a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine where men were actually given AIs. One with Testosterone replacement and one with testosterone suppression. Regardless of the results NONE of the subjects had such a strong response to AIs and they were taking much more of them.

I was hoping someone else might have the same reaction or a better cure for bloating. I really feel pretty good (without the AIs).

Also, I won't take the Tren this time round. Maybe next year.

tren is great when your ready for it. I used to make my own from fina cartridges. its powerfull I have never gained much weight on it but the strength is scary. I only ran it with test p.

 

[halfwit]

For starters, you really need to look at your diet. You're trying to run and put on mass with what I would imagine is a lackluster dietary plan. You can't do both at the same time; you need to cut down on the running/cardio period, and focus on eating enough to gain along with lifting hard. You don't state how long you've been in the gym consistently, but I sincerely hope longer than a couple years as AAS will put an enormous strain on your connective tissues.

Now to your issues with estrogen and your aromatase inhibitors: The answer here is simple; we don't know and can't tell what's going on without you getting a blood test. Assuming you live in the 'States, you can order a confidential blood test from privatemdlabs.com and select the female hormone panel (There are a few states that require you to cross state lines to do this such as NY as well). Once you have those results (you can also order a sensitive testosterone panel on top of the female panel if you want to know the exact value of your total testosterone for bragging rights), we can then make an appropriate informed decision. Otherwise, we're stabbing in the dark - hoping to hit the right solution by pure luck and educated guesses.

My guess is that you're suffering from elevated estrogen sides as swelling of the feet typically comes long after it has been allowed to build up to an appreciable level. 25mg of aromasin or .5mg of arimidex shouldn't cause you any problems unless you happen to be sensitive to their fillers/solutes/binders, which is pretty rare to see that in both of them. I'm betting some of it is psychosomatic, as you know you're taking a new substance and listening with deafening intensity to your body at the same time. Aromasin should be taken at 12.5-25mg EVERY DAY and arimidex should be taken at .25-.5mg EVERY OTHER DAY. Seeing problems with your libido just shouldn't happen instantaneously like that. (Aromasin takes about a week to drop serum levels while arimidex takes roughly 48hrs for an ~80% reduction.)

Out of curiosity, are your AI's from a research chemical company or UGL (or pharmaceutical for that matter)? No need to mention sites, just the brand or type of storefront purchased from. Some companies use different solutions to dissolve the active ingredients, so if it's non-pharma, I'd wager you're allergic to that as a potential cause for your illness.

In short: Get a blood test and check back in. You've been on long enough to see a nice profile by now, so it's worth the fifty dollar investment plus an additional cost if you want the sensitive assay. If your AI's are from a particular company, you can try acquiring them from a different source such as RUI (red lion logo above) which I can personally say has been great in quality for my research.

My .02c

 

[PBateman]

Honestly I want a cutting cycle. People have called me "jacked" my entire life. I've just never been "cut."

When my body goes into caloric deficit it goes after the muscle as much as the fat. I just get smaller. Tren seemed attractive because it appears to be the perfect "cutting" agent. Rips through fat and adds muscle. Also the fact that it's non-aromatizing and doesn't effect DHT seems like it's perfect.

I still can't figure out why these damn AIs have such an impact. That said so does the Test-E. I feel AWESOME on Test-E and look kinda bloated. Forcing myself to drink a gallon a day helps but I'm certainly not cut.

 

[FlyMolo]

I was always told to start Dex at .25 mg EOD and aromasin 12.5 ED and adjust accordingly by judging the impact. A blood panel would really be helpful in determining your E levels. One of the more experienced members might be able to tell you what specific levels you are looking for.

BTW I had to comment on you saying you knew you would lose more weight running but didn't want a tiny runners body. Weight gain/loss is your basic calories in vs calories burnt. Burn more calories than you take in and weight goes down. Take in more calories than you burn weight goes up. The composition of that weight is reflective of your macronutrient profile. It's not about taking in just a massive amount of protein. You need to balance your diet.

I think you would have been able to control your estro related side effects better if you had cut down to a lower body fat. I am at 10-11 percent right now and will probably start when I hit 8-9.

 

[halfwit]

Honestly I want a cutting cycle. People have called me "jacked" my entire life. I've just never been "cut."

When my body goes into caloric deficit it goes after the muscle as much as the fat. I just get smaller. Tren seemed attractive because it appears to be the perfect "cutting" agent. Rips through fat and adds muscle. Also the fact that it's non-aromatizing and doesn't effect DHT seems like it's perfect.

I still can't figure out why these damn AIs have such an impact. That said so does the Test-E. I feel AWESOME on Test-E and look kinda bloated. Forcing myself to drink a gallon a day helps but I'm certainly not cut.

Diet is 80% of the battle my friend. I'd head over to the diet section, locate 3J's diet thread, and post your diet in there. See what the guru thinks (he trains competitors) and I bet you'll see the results you're looking for. Otherwise, you're frankly pissing away your money (literally). I still advise you get that blood test too.

 

[PBateman]

Thank you halfwit. I think I'll do just that. Get a blood test.

Also maybe I wasn't clear my feet aren't actually bloating they just hurt or "pump" when I finish running. They're actually pretty okay during the run. I've started taking some taurine and that actually helps. I'm nervous because of my experience with the AIs and so I'm upping the dose slowly.

With regards to my training I usually spend my winters (November-March) 5-6 days in the gym and the rest of the year, 3 gym days then 3 days of running or cycling. So what has traditionally has happened is that all winter I get large. At 25 or so I began to plateau at the same weights annually. Then the summers hit and I just shrink. (Last year was the ONLY year ever that personal reasons caused this change.)

My diet 5 days a week is:

Breakfast - 3-4 eggs with red peppers and onion, 1 glass watered down OJ
Morning snack - greek yogurt with almonds & walnuts
Lunch - Some sort of grilled chicken breast or tuna with veggies, protein shake
Afternoon Snack - Apple, Orange, Banana pretty much whatever fruit is in season and I bought that week, probably still drinking shake
Dinner - Chicken breast in some sort of simmer sauce and some sort of carb. More carbs as summer approaches.
After dinner - I'm always still hungry so sometimes I have granola with soy milk

(Kinda let myself cheat a little on the weekends but definitely not a lot. I'm always the jerk who won't go to that restaurant because there's nothing healthy I can eat there. I try to steer my friends to Sushi.)

Once race season comes around I have to take in A LOT more calories. Still I've tried hard for YEARS to make most of those calories come from protein but when I do that I just don't have the endurance to run or ride. I have to eat more carbs. Usually they're whole grain bread or pasta. Still no matter what I eat my body just shrinks and doesn't "cut."

With regards to the gear you know I never looked closely but everything EXCEPT the aromasin clearly comes from Pharma. They all have brands, company logos, NDC codes and some are marked with the brand name drug rather than the chemical. The aromasin is the only one that comes in a black pouch. Has "RX only" written on it NDC code, lot expiration and barcode but no real brand. Just the logo of atlas with the world on his shoulders.

You're also right about it probably being somewhat psychosomatic. I have lost a good inch along my waist. It was one day of bloat that countered this and so I freaked out a bit and took the aromasin. I really should have just tried to let it run its course. Right now I'm a little bloated but not at the point where others have noticed. (Or at least they don't mention it) I've gotten comments on my shoulders and bis but no one has yet to say "you look like you've lost weight." My chest sticks out farther than my stomach when I'm drinking enough water. I guess it could also be that I've never experienced bloating before and I'm freaking out over nothing. Still, those Aromatase inhibitor (AI) side effects feel real. Not being able to get off is what brought me to the forum. I could hardly control myself until that first dose of aromasin killed my libido.

 

[PBateman]

Not sure if anyone is still paying attention to this thread but I thought I'd give you guys an update 3 weeks later.

I've finally reached my steady state and have gotten to understand my body. The Test-E ONLY as a first cycle is probably the best advice I've taken. I'm absolutely blown away by my progress. I've accomplished more in the past 7 weeks than I have in the last year. It's truly helped me breakthrough the dreaded plateau which I perceived more as a ceiling.

So here's what I did to get back to normal. After about 10 days my body recovered from the aromasin (which I now considered the nuclear option) and I went on a EOD dose of 0.5mg Adex. This combined with a weekly dose of 500mg Test-E has put me in a very comfortable place. I've also been carb cycling which I'm sure has also helped.

I've DEFINITELY put on some weight. I had to go out and buy new dress shirts because I can't button the top anymore. That and my pants are getting looser around the waist. I'm down to about 17% bodyfat and dropping. I'd like to hit 10% by the end of my cycle. I only worry that while I'll be able to fit into all my pants again none of my shirts will fit.

My takeaway from the experience is really that I definitely need to run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) when I cycle. I've had absolutely no signs of gyno but I think running finasteride is what really tipped me in the wrong direction.

I looked at some pharmacokinetic models and realized if you're inhibiting your body's ability to break Testosterone down into DHT you're going to push it down the e2 path.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback guys. And to anyone out there running Test-E with BF% close to 20 DEFINITELY use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) from the start.