First cycle Test E/Tren A/Winny

[FreudianBulldog]

Hello all,

First time cycler here, wanted to get some veteran input on how it looks. Have done loads of scientific research, be it from NEJM, and beyond. I understand many (probably 99% of you) on here will say to run a Test-only initial cycle. I understand your concern, and I would only like to say as a rebuff that I have tested my reaction to Testosterone via Pharm-Grade materials, and the response was good. I expect no surprises, and from the research I've gathered, really the only reason people do say you should do a Test-only cycle is because of the allergic reactions, etc. That being said, my plan allows for maximum isolation of potential steroid problems due to the spaced-out nature of the cycle.

My stats:

Age—*26 years

Ethnicity— Middle Eastern/White

Height—6'1"

Weight—Currently at 260, a good percentage of that is body fat (around 35%) but I have a decent base after powerlifting 5 days a week for 8+ months completely natural (I wasn't joking around either, I was actually filling out Smolov charts with a pencil and calculator while people looked at me funny). My problem was that around 225lb, I decided McDonalds was a good diet to bulk on (I gain weight and muscle INSANELY fast, it's very unfortunate and I really wish I had a skinny problem)...but my bad decisions caught up with me, and I'm now cutting hard for at least three months to get down to 200 before I begin this first-ever cycle.

Lifts: Bench Press (repping 225), Squats (repping 315), Deadlift (repping 405) even after nearly lifting consistently (5 times a week) for almost a year, I haven't been able to add weight reliably without getting more fat. I have certainly noticed that my parabolic rise has reached an asymptote where more work leads to less and less gains in weight on bar. No gouda. Not fun. Enter the AAS alternative. My dream is to reach the Holy Triplet of 315 bench, 405 squat and 500 deadlift with the help of the following cycle once I've lost the requisite 60 pounds of fat. You can bet your bottom dollar my diet is on with a fierce militance. Not a stray calorie goes in my body. I'm very aware of the slew of estrogen problems with starting a CWF (cycling while fat).

Here is my proposed Summertime cycle:
10 WEEKS: Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday — Trenbolone Acetate @75mgs/shot
10 WEEKS: Monday, Thursday — Testosterone Enanthate @150mgs/shot
4 WEEKS: Monday-Friday Winstrol (Stanozolol) "Winny" @ 50mg ED for the tail-end 4 WEEKS of the 10 WEEKS cycle

15 days after my last injection, I will initiate PCT as follows:

Week 1 Aromasin 12.5mg and Nolvadex 40mg and Clomid 100mg a day
Week 2 Aromasin 12.5mg and Nolvadex 40mg and Clomid 100mg a day
Week 3 Aromasin 6.25mg and Nolvadex 20mg and Clomid 50mg a day

My goal is to destroy what flab/baby fat I have on my body after dieting, some loose skin and to define, pack-on and dry-out the muscle I've already added (and hopefully kept most of while I'm dieting) from my months of insane lifting (I honestly think powerlifters are crazy...all you care about is adding more weight? Very tempting, but I hope to diversify my stuff later on after/during this cycle.) and I want to weight around 195-215 pounds while I do it. So there whille be a minimal net change, in a sense, but a whole lot of visual/BF/vascularity/etc. etc. difference.

Now, I understand some of you will say this is crazy for a first cycle, but I honestly don't see how it is a problem given that I know I'm not resistant to Testosterone, I have gained most of the muscle I can naturally (not saying 100% genetic potential), and that is an excellent predictor of whether or not cycles are right for you. If anyone cares to enlightmen me to the contrary I'd love to hear it, as well as any and all suggestions on tweaking, etc. as I try to go for my goal of getting strong, defined (ideally around 9-12% BF) and vascular this Spring/Summer.

 

[Norsegod]

There is a lot wrong here...

Test only on first cycle, Idc how big you are.

Definitely do not take tren!

Aromasin is not for pct. It's an ai to be run throughout cycle.

Your body fat is way way too high. High body fat pretty much guarantees side effects because the more fat you have the more aromatase enzymes you have. Your bf% should be at 15% AT THE MOST before you cycle. With that bf tren would make you wish you were dead.

Honestly, you aren't that strong...you haven't been training nearly long enough to meet your potential, despite what you seem to think....and the most important thing to this game-diet-is something you obviously need a lot of help with.

My advice-and I don't care if you like it or not-do NOT take aas.
Get ahold of 3j(member on here) and work with him. He will show you what it's like to actually meet your genetic potential.

I'm honestly in awe of your post....it's a very very poorly planned, bad bad idea...
You only get one body, brother. Why would you want to Fuck it up before you even get it looking good?

Oh, and I would plan to look like a stud for next summer, because there is no way it is happening for this one without literally killing yourself

 

[FreudianBulldog]

Thanks for the reply Norsegod.

I undestand the insistence on Test-only and rejectionn of Tren. How would I run these potent drugs, in your opinion? Test cycle first? Followed by a PCT and then 2nd cycle of Tren/Winny with another PCT?

I've heard mixed answers on the science behind adding a small amount of Aromasin for PCT, some say it should be taken during the cycle (generally as-needed in case of emergency estrogen issues or in minor doses to stave them off as a guard) and some say after the cycle to ensure that estrogen levels are as stable as possible while on PCT, since that's when estrogen-balance in important.

I understand I'm not that strong, but I certainly (judging from my 1RMs at 260 at least) pretty close to my goal to my dream powerlifting goal. I guess that's not "insanely" good. But I'm not really going for that level of intensity. I'm surprised you're saying I'm not nearly close to my potential. I honestly was adding 5-10 pounds a month maybe on my lifts and recovery was damn near impossible even with 1 day of rest...that's nothing (for me at least, am I wrong in that thinking?).

Like I said, as well, I am not currently taking nor will I be taking in the next few months AAS. Again, I was thinking of cycling only after I've dropped down to 200 lbs and I've got my BF at around 15% or less. At that time I would run the test, followed by introduction of tren and concluded with winny for the tail end.

I'd be glad to talk to 3j and get up to speed on my genetic potential and when I should expect to run a cycle. Thanks again, Norsegod.

 

[tbonexl]

I thought this was a joke. There is seriously a lot wrong with what u posted. Almost everything. U gotta take a step back and read your post. Maybe go look at some other posts. You'll see why it cant be taken seriously.

 

[FreudianBulldog]

Aside from stacking too early potentially, I don't see the problem. The three steroids have a synergistic effect, it's considered the gold standard in cutting cycles. I have no idea what you're talking about, honestly. I've said I want to get down to 200lbs before I start, I have a decent PCT (debated, obviously, but it's got most of the drugs I need).

Unless you guys are doing what I suspect you're doing, in which case...thank you.

 

[smittiot]

You have no business using AAS at this point in your life. Fix your diet and you will do great things naturally.

 

[Norsegod]

Bro, I am finishing up cycle number eleven and still haven't done tren. Yes, a lot of people make a bigger deal of tren than they should, but that doesn't change the fact that it should be used by experienced individuals only, as it requires the knowledge of several ancillary drugs, as well as a self awareness that is only gains with experience of weaker aas use. I haven't waited this long out of fear, but more out of common sense. Think of it this way...tren has an anabolic/androgenic rating of 500/500. Test is 100/100. Then there are all the other compounds higher, or lower or even a few falling betwixt the aforementioned drugs. Now, like we all said, you should meet your genetic NATURAL POTENTIAL first. When you start gear, certain drugs will only take you so far, so you get something stronger or up the dose in order to achieve another plateau. After doing this a few times you can't get any bigger, more shredded without something really good. Like so strong you can feel it when you pin it. That's where tren comes in. Then gh and slin. Why use the strongest option before you NEED it?

Also, when you start gear, you don't know how to properly dose an ai for YOUR body without some trial and error and blood testing. The reason we recommend test only is so that 1.you can see how you react to hear 2.you can use as little as possible so as not to down regulated your receptors to quickly 3.you can become accustomed to this part of the lifestyle and ensuring you can handle all the things that go with it while also keeping up with dosing protocol, blood testing and all the other things that should be done and 4.so that you can learn about other compounds BEFORE you take them. Taking tren for your first cycle is like snorting a gram of heroin when your doctor told you only one vicodin for pain.

Aromasin, or another ai, should always be run DURING cycle to keep your e2 in check. The main concern with pct is not estro(nolva blocks it from doing any harm anyway)...it's starting up endogenous test production again.

You may think you met your potential, but I assure you that you have not. First off, you have a lot of fat....second, there are so many different diets, training programs, supplements, amounts of water intake, nutrient timing, hormone manipulation, etc., for you to have utilized them in one year. It took me 6 years of SERIOUS training before I was at a point where I felt I could take aas, and honestly-looking back-I could have gotten a lot better naturally.

If you want to take two compounds then take var with your test. It's mild on your liver and it is a very underrated compound. Anavar actually has fat burning properties, too. I use it A LOT. Just don't take anything until you get the fat off.

If you want an added boost then go to the endocrinologist and get your test levels checked. I would be willing to bet that with your bf, it's probably low. Get on trt, if the doctor allows it, but please....don't do any drugs otherwise.

The guys on here care about our members. That's part of what we're here for, to prevent people from doing something they will most certainly regret. You need to do a lot of research. I know you prob hate me right now, but you don't know anywhere near as much as you may think. You don't even have the basics down. Just look at the night side, the natural time you have will give you plenty of time to learn. Really educate yourself. This world can make a champion out of the most defeated souls or....it can scar you for life in so many ways. What it does for you is up to you.

 

[BigGains]

Use this tool to calculate proper PCT timing:

PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator

Norsegod has very valid points. I've been itching to start for a year now, and am so glad I found this site. I didn't know how little I actually knew until I joined this forum. Now, I know a lot more, but I still know very little if that makes sense. Learn from other's mistakes brother. Sounds a bit negative I know, but these guys (who are experienced) would say the same thing. Guaranteed.

Maybe consider running a paleo nutrition plan for 6 months. Better yet, get 3j in your corner.

Good luck!

Hello all,

First time cycler here, wanted to get some veteran input on how it looks. Have done loads of scientific research, be it from NEJM, and beyond. I understand many (probably 99% of you) on here will say to run a Test-only initial cycle. I understand your concern, and I would only like to say as a rebuff that I have tested my reaction to Testosterone via Pharm-Grade materials, and the response was good. I expect no surprises, and from the research I've gathered, really the only reason people do say you should do a Test-only cycle is because of the allergic reactions, etc. That being said, my plan allows for maximum isolation of potential steroid problems due to the spaced-out nature of the cycle.

My stats:

Age***8212;*26 years

Ethnicity***8212; Middle Eastern/White

Height***8212;6'1"

Weight***8212;Currently at 260, a good percentage of that is body fat (around 35%) but I have a decent base after powerlifting 5 days a week for 8+ months completely natural (I wasn't joking around either, I was actually filling out Smolov charts with a pencil and calculator while people looked at me funny). My problem was that around 225lb, I decided McDonalds was a good diet to bulk on (I gain weight and muscle INSANELY fast, it's very unfortunate and I really wish I had a skinny problem)...but my bad decisions caught up with me, and I'm now cutting hard for at least three months to get down to 200 before I begin this first-ever cycle.

Lifts: Bench Press (repping 225), Squats (repping 315), Deadlift (repping 405) even after nearly lifting consistently (5 times a week) for almost a year, I haven't been able to add weight reliably without getting more fat. I have certainly noticed that my parabolic rise has reached an asymptote where more work leads to less and less gains in weight on bar. No gouda. Not fun. Enter the AAS alternative. My dream is to reach the Holy Triplet of 315 bench, 405 squat and 500 deadlift with the help of the following cycle once I've lost the requisite 60 pounds of fat. You can bet your bottom dollar my diet is on with a fierce militance. Not a stray calorie goes in my body. I'm very aware of the slew of estrogen problems with starting a CWF (cycling while fat).

Here is my proposed Summertime cycle:
10 WEEKS: Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday ***8212; Trenbolone Acetate @75mgs/shot
10 WEEKS: Monday, Thursday ***8212; Testosterone Enanthate @150mgs/shot
4 WEEKS: Monday-Friday Winstrol (Stanozolol) "Winny" @ 50mg ED for the tail-end 4 WEEKS of the 10 WEEKS cycle

15 days after my last injection, I will initiate PCT as follows:

Week 1 Aromasin 12.5mg and Nolvadex 40mg and Clomid 100mg a day
Week 2 Aromasin 12.5mg and Nolvadex 40mg and Clomid 100mg a day
Week 3 Aromasin 6.25mg and Nolvadex 20mg and Clomid 50mg a day

My goal is to destroy what flab/baby fat I have on my body after dieting, some loose skin and to define, pack-on and dry-out the muscle I've already added (and hopefully kept most of while I'm dieting) from my months of insane lifting (I honestly think powerlifters are crazy...all you care about is adding more weight? Very tempting, but I hope to diversify my stuff later on after/during this cycle.) and I want to weight around 195-215 pounds while I do it. So there whille be a minimal net change, in a sense, but a whole lot of visual/BF/vascularity/etc. etc. difference.

Now, I understand some of you will say this is crazy for a first cycle, but I honestly don't see how it is a problem given that I know I'm not resistant to Testosterone, I have gained most of the muscle I can naturally (not saying 100% genetic potential), and that is an excellent predictor of whether or not cycles are right for you. If anyone cares to enlightmen me to the contrary I'd love to hear it, as well as any and all suggestions on tweaking, etc. as I try to go for my goal of getting strong, defined (ideally around 9-12% BF) and vascular this Spring/Summer.

 

[aidenmanofrisque]

Hello , I've ran this cycle before. DO NOT DO IT FOR YOUR FIRST CYCLE. You have yet to pin so you have no idea if you can handle ED injections for winny. IF you do winny orally it is EXTREMELY hepatoxic, and so is TREN. Running both at the same time devastates your liver. I would describe being on tren as riding the dragon, its that intense.
If you are dead set on running tren start off with just test E so you can acclimate yourself to the effects of "being on" before you go to the most intense AAS there is.
Now that we are past that,
1) you need to run an AI while you are on artificial test, not after. Increased estro levels are just as bad for you as the increased test levels.
2) tren will cause you to produce prolactin, the prego hormone. You need another ancillary to manage this. prami, caber, bromo etc.
3) Could you provide some info on your diet
4) If you want to burn fat/build strength, winny is not for you. Winny is a good precomp drug because it gives you a good dry and cut look, it does not burn fat nor is it comparable to other AAS in terms of strength gains.
5) why dose on the lower end? Using less of anything does not save your HPTA, tren will shut down your test production with shot #1. As long as you are running a good AI, research shows more test=leaner composition and more gains.

 

[aidenmanofrisque]

Oh, and norsegod, i respect your knowledge and opinions as an experienced AAS user. How ever, I incorporated tren into my first cycle. (4 weeks 500mg test E/week, and then 8 weeks 500mg test E/week and 100mg tren ace EOD) with no problems. It is not out of reason to say that tren is a possible option for beginners assuming they fully understand its possible effects, and the ancillaries needed to combat possible side effects.
That being said, I do agree with you tren is a very serious AAS and should only be used to experienced and knowledgeable AAS users.

 

[FreudianBulldog]

Oh, and norsegod, i respect your knowledge and opinions as an experienced AAS user. How ever, I incorporated tren into my first cycle. (4 weeks 500mg test E/week, and then 8 weeks 500mg test E/week and 100mg tren ace EOD) with no problems. It is not out of reason to say that tren is a possible option for beginners assuming they fully understand its possible effects, and the ancillaries needed to combat possible side effects.
That being said, I do agree with you tren is a very serious AAS and should only be used to experienced and knowledgeable AAS users.

Hey man thanks for the advice, how were your results for that initial cycle before and after wise?

 

[STAUNCHED427]

Winny, and all other 17AA steroids for that matter are hepatoxic whether you administer them orally or via IM.

 

[bxruger]

cool

 

[aidenmanofrisque]

Bulldog, I'm a stripper. I already was at a low % bodyfat and had a good diet. That cycle just let me go from 185 to 200 (im 5'11") while maintaining a BF below 10%. Tren is used by the livestock industry because it increases feed efficiency(nutrient efficiency), so it allows you to still have gains on a low calorie diet.
How ever, my cycle after that i Tried throwing winny into the same mix for a week, my dick didn't work, i felt like shit, and it took a big toll on me. I still think you should start with just Test, but if you want to stack something with tren and test i would recommend Var.

 

[aidenmanofrisque]

Winny, and all other 17AA steroids for that matter are hepatoxic whether you administer them orally or via IM.

While this is true, an IM injection allows the AAS to skip the first pass on the liver. I'll try to look for solid evidence tonight, but I'm pretty sure an IM versus oral administration yields something like 30-40% higher plasma levels.
As I'm sure most of us know, winny is a terrible injection. I don't like winny at all in general, it ruins my libido and makes me feel tired, even with great liver protection in use. Get a better cut from tren and var and if I need to look dry i have plenty of HCZ(sodium dropping potassium sparing diuretic) on hand.