Have your Raws been cut?

[poindexter]

In this world of greed and making high profits I've often wondered where do the raw materials for making these hormones originate in china? My imagination runs wild, are pharmaceutical labs in China in on this? or is it some random worker on the line cuffing a few and starting a sideline business? are they cutting it? and if so with what? I mean drug dealer step on cocaine why would'nt a person dealing hormones step on the raw material? I'm not trying to come off all righteous and s***, I'm just saying!

 

[iamcman]

Raws generally don't have the high price that cocaine and heroin do, so I would guess that it isn't worth doing like it is with drugs. I mean, coke goes for $80-100 a gram and heroin anywhere from $100 up to $300 for the high purity stuff.

Doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen, but I doubt it's as common as you think.

 

[poindexter]

Raws generally don't have the high price that cocaine and heroin do, so I would guess that it isn't worth doing like it is with drugs. I mean, coke goes for $80-100 a gram and heroin anywhere from $100 up to $300 for the high purity stuff.

Doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen, but I doubt it's as common as you think.

Great point BUT like I said GREED goes beyond what is logical for you and I. I don't know where you're from but Inbev ( formerly Anheuser Busch ) was recently accused of watering down beer, which according to your logic wouldn't be worth watering down but they are in court proceedings right now because of it, what does a six pack go for $7 bucks ? When volume is high so is the opportunity for profits, they would be foolish not to cut them. they have no regulation, its illegal, and its china.( not a racist statement but an economical one ) So what's my point? Ultimately to have some sort of control over what goes into my body, and the only way to know for sure is to have it tested or have your bloodwork tested which in the case of blood work you still don't know if it's been cut. It just seems to me that we of the community of AAS users would speak on possible methods to ensure quality, and take steps to make it a reality. Opps there I go fantasizing again.

 

[iamcman]

With finished oils under-dosing is probably fairly common, but it's a little harder with powders...it's pretty easy to test raw product to see if it contains what it's supposed to contain, mainly through verifying by melting point, which is pretty common knowledge and very easy to do. To deceive people when testing by melting point is so easy, the substance used to cut would have to melt at the exact same temperature as the hormone it's supposed to contain, has to have the same solubility in all the same commonly used solvents, and also be cheaper to buy/produce than the hormone.

I think you're getting a little too paranoid about this, it really isn't as easy or feasible as you think it is.

 

[poindexter]

With finished oils under-dosing is probably fairly common, but it's a little harder with powders...it's pretty easy to test raw product to see if it contains what it's supposed to contain, mainly through verifying by melting point, which is pretty common knowledge and very easy to do. To deceive people when testing by melting point is so easy, the substance used to cut would have to melt at the exact same temperature as the hormone it's supposed to contain, has to have the same solubility in all the same commonly used solvents, and also be cheaper to buy/produce than the hormone.

I think you're getting a little too paranoid about this, it really isn't as easy or feasible as you think it is.

Being paranoid when it comes to sticking a needle in your ass with a substance you can't really identify is a good thing, but I guess it's no big deal to most which is probably the reason why we are still at status quo. if YOU have ever done a melting point test then YOU qualify as paranoid and naive at the same time, because on one hand you don't trust it, that's why you're doing the melting point test, and on the other hand you're naive because you think the melting point test the only test that is necessary. If you think the science community cannot find a compound that will melt and blend at the same time your nuts, you and I may not know what the compounds are, trust me they do. I've grown bored with this conversation so I'm going to end this by agreeing with you and declare you the winner of this argument, there are no fake or bunk raws and you can trust any source you purchase from on the Internet. Happy pinning, lol.

 

[iamcman]

...If you think it costs companies in china anything significantly more to synthesize just about any hormone than it costs to synthesize a compound that could theoretically be used to cut while still passing melting point tests, YOU'RE naive.

This stuff is literally dirt cheap to produce. I'm sorry, the production costs to a laboratory for hormones simply don't justify them attempting to find another compound to cut with that looks similar, has similar physical and chemical properties, etc. when it's going to end up costing them the same OR MORE in money, time and manpower to do so, rather than just synthesizing the hormone in the first place.

This may be an underground, illegal activity here in the states, but these Chinese labs ARE somewhat legitimate by Chinese standards and DO have a name to protect, and they're not going to risk trashing their reputation over something that would probably end up costing more money and effort than it would to just do it properly in the first place.



But really, do go ahead and continue thinking I'm the naive one, genius. If it's so damn easy and cheap to get away with, and so profitable, go run along to China and start your own lab, then cut your product with powdered sugar. I'm sure you'll be in business for YEARS ON END, and be rolling in mad lootz!!!



Seriously, if you want to be paranoid about sticking a needle in your ass when it comes to oils produced in some UGL somewhere, fine. But buying raw powder from any of the number of reputable raw sources, Chinese or otherwise, is really about as safe as you can possibly get when it comes to this "hobby", aside from somehow being able to get a prescription for any and every kind of steroid on the market, and picking up human-grade stuff directly from a brick-and-mortar pharmacy.

 

[poindexter]

I will agree with the statements in your last paragraph, I believe if you're going to inject AAS it should be pharmaceutical grade or from raw material, but as for the rest of your statements you and I both know you don't have the numbers for what the cost is, or how hard or easy it would be to get cut material, but you did sound pretty convincing saying it, damn near convinced me. in your first response you stated "doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen, I doubt it is as common as you think" you don't know what the f*** I'm thinkin, nor do you know what the man in f****** China is thinking! you must live in f****** Mayberry ! now you come off like it's absolutely impossible for raw material to be inferior or bunk ( which is absolute b*******) to be honest I wish you were right but I know better, but f*** what I think. the only way to know for absolute sure if what you have is 100 percent pure is to have it tested.That should be the end of the discussion but I have a feeling it won't be, lol.

 

[iamcman]

Okay, reread the following:

buying raw powder from any of the number of reputable raw sources, Chinese or otherwise, is really about as safe as you can possibly get

Now tell me where in there it says it's impossible for it to happen, ever, at ANY "lab."

All that really says is that it's extremely unlikely at any reputable, well known lab that has a good reputation to protect.

Nowhere in any post I've made do I say it's impossible for someone to end up with 100 grams of powdered sugar when buying from any old shit unknown scam "lab" found on tradekey.com or something that no one has ever heard of. Places like that probably DO send bunk product to people while operating under a name for a few weeks, then change their name and repeat. These places aren't even labs and hence don't have the capacity to synthesize hormones at low cost. They're probably just some lone Chinese dude from Shanghai looking for a quick buck.

But nowhere have I ever claimed anything remotely like what you're suggesting I have.

 

[Buttman3]

Speaking from my experiences, I believe the signs suggest that the powders have been cut.

Example 1:

All UGL Test Prop 100mg/ml I have used (Geneza, "Nordic UK" 's Virormone) were noticeably stronger than my homebrew Test Prop 100mg/ml. My strength gain was much bigger with UGL Test Prop.


Example 2:

My Tren brewed from Fina pellets (legit vet product) were WAY stronger than my homebrew Tren from chinese ingredients.

My weight gain from about 100mg from Fina pellets were the same as my weight gain from about 200mg chinese Tren (100mg Tren A + 100mg E). In addition, the side effect (insomnia) was way stronger with Fina pellets.


Example 3:

One time, I noticed my new viagra, Tren A / E, and Sustanon had a similar fragrance. I know from experience as well as from common sense that they should not have a similar smell, so I asked the source why they all had a similar fragrance. He did not have a direct answer other than "purity 98%."

I used the products, and from the results and side effects, I knew they were real stuffs, but for sure, they had been cut with a compound that emitted the same fragrance.

 

[tommbstone]

I don't think cutting it up is something to worry about.

I worry more about the cleanness of the raw. Some raw is very dirty and some is super clean making it less painfull and easy to filter and shoot.

 

[iamcman]

^^^This.

I'd be more worried about contaminants like heavy metals and other kinds of toxic impurities.

These are things that can't be easily tested for by the average joe the way the melting point test can. One might be able to tell that the product is indeed what they ordered, but finding out if there are tiny amounts of toxic metals is impossible without GC/MS testing.

 

[poindexter]

Speaking from my experiences, I believe the signs suggest that the powders have been cut.

Example 1:

All UGL Test Prop 100mg/ml I have used (Geneza, "Nordic UK" 's Virormone) were noticeably stronger than my homebrew Test Prop 100mg/ml. My strength gain was much bigger with UGL Test Prop.


Example 2:

My Tren brewed from Fina pellets (legit vet product) were WAY stronger than my homebrew Tren from chinese ingredients.

My weight gain from about 100mg from Fina pellets were the same as my weight gain from about 200mg chinese Tren (100mg Tren A + 100mg E). In addition, the side effect (insomnia) was way stronger with Fina pellets.


Example 3:

One time, I noticed my new viagra, Tren A / E, and Sustanon had a similar fragrance. I know from experience as well as from common sense that they should not have a similar smell, so I asked the source why they all had a similar fragrance. He did not have a direct answer other than "purity 98%."

I used the products, and from the results and side effects, I knew they were real stuffs, but for sure, they had been cut with a compound that emitted the same fragrance.

Thanks Buttman, this is exactly what I was saying before I got entangled in a bull**** debate about who's cock is the biggest. If more guys chimed in some would have the same response. There is a forum where they claim to test some of the oils from the sponsor, how sincere the report is I don't know. It would be nice to have a forum where they tested raw material, that all I was trying to relay when I started the thread, not waste time and energy bullsh***** and splitting hairs. I wished I had the resources to test the raws and report the findings because thats what we need. End of story.

 

[iamcman]

I think it should be noted that a source who answers the question "Why do all your products smell similar?" with:

"..purit 98%"

obviously doesn't have even a halfway decent grasp of the English language. every well known raw source I've talked to, of which there are several, have no significant problems speaking english, and all provide prompt, concise, detailed and relevant answers to every question asked of them.

Some dude who responds to a question like that with the completely non-sequitur answer "purity 98%" doesn't exactly scream 'reputable supplier'...at least not to me. Doesn't sound anything like the sources I know, so very curious who this source was.

 

[delcapone]

should not have read this, now my wheels are turning, last time I ordered a test e, came as a brick, the whole kitchen smells like test, this time test is powdery, and lacks the strong smell

 

[iamcman]

Ordered from same place both times?

 

[juced_porkchop]

I don't think cutting it up is something to worry about.

I worry more about the cleanness of the raw. Some raw is very dirty and some is super clean making it less painfull and easy to filter and shoot.

yeah and left over chemicals form making the raws in a reckless way ( why i would avoid china raws at all costs personally)

 

[SicVic]

Can u just cook it down in the pyrex like they do with cocaine to crack???

 

[poindexter]

Can u just cook it down in the pyrex like they do with cocaine to crack???

Man wouldn't that be nice, if some bodybuilding scientists were sympathetic to our cause and blessed us with that knowledge, but you and others like you that have an open mind to realize that we need a better method to regulate what goes into our bodies, are going to be the ones to stumble upon the information that's needed to put this issue to rest. I'm using homebrewed test right now and I've been getting some of the most amazing results that haven't been seen a long time, but at the same time I would like to know that I'm getting only test and not tren acetate, deca, mast etc, or some low grade material that didn't make the cut. in my opinion unless you're getting pharmaceutical grade, raws are the next best choice.

 

[bmays]

Purity is dubious, i can see them skipping purification steps in order to increase final yield. Actually adding a cut is not done as far as i know. With mass production and no looming nanny state government these hormones are probably produced for $20 or less per kg.

Yes, you can use NaOH in methanol to freebase hormones. Not that it will make them smokeable...haha. I have made base for suspension from enanthate like this. Just purify, purify, purify. Enanthate always smells of heptanoic acid. This can be removed with repeated methanol/water recrystallization. Expect to loose up to 50% of your raw, it is a poor process but simple enough. Plenty more is produced in your body as the ester is cleaved in your body anyway, so removing traces may be a waste of time.

 

[andriyav]

Purity is dubious, i can see them skipping purification steps in order to increase final yield. Actually adding a cut is not done as far as i know. With mass production and no looming nanny state government these hormones are probably produced for $20 or less per kg.

Yes, you can use NaOH in methanol to freebase hormones. Not that it will make them smokeable...haha. I have made base for suspension from enanthate like this. Just purify, purify, purify. Enanthate always smells of heptanoic acid. This can be removed with repeated methanol/water recrystallization. Expect to loose up to 50% of your raw, it is a poor process but simple enough. Plenty more is produced in your body as the ester is cleaved in your body anyway, so removing traces may be a waste of time.

What can be used instead of methanol?