HCG questions/usage relevancy regarding new protocol!

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Hey guys, so ive got a question about pct, and I'd like some input from here. Iv researched this thoroughly, but I still get a ton of conflicting answers. When it comes to pct, how should HCG be used? Essentially, i've gotten three different answers. 1). for the 10 days pre PCT, but 10 days post final injection(or 3 days for short esters). 2). Only for 4 weeks late cycle (think week 9-13 or so of a 16 week cycle). 3). not at all, use only SERMs (HCG only should be used if noticeable testicular atrophy has occurred/you really fucked up). Which of these is ideal in your eyes?

Also, if you guys would indulge me, my curiosity is pertaining to a long term cycle (about 34 weeks or so without coming off entirely, though I wasnt high dose the whole time). Im now attempting to come off entirely, for at least a year or two. I haven't experienced any testicular atrophy (at least that I've been able to notice). I used hcg for 5 weeks (1000/week) maybe two months ago, mid cycle. Should I follow the first protocol and wait 10 days, then blast hcg for 10, then clomid/nolva for 5-6 weeks? Or is the third protocol (10 days then just nolva/clomid for 5 weeks) more effective? Time is a bit of a factor here, the faster the better, although I also need to get my test back to normal as effectively as possible. Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on the ideal protocol overall, the ideal one for someone who's test doesn't APPEAR to have been shut down at all (I was down to cruising on 100mgs of test/wk and still felt great, plus no ball shrinkage), how hcg fits into differing protocols, and how necessary/effective you think it is.

A lot of questions i know, but every site seems to give a different answer, and i hope any answers might help anyone else looking for an ideal PCT protocol as well. Thanks as always everyone!

 

[Megatron28]

hCG usage is covered in the following thread.

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a.../675497-ology-frequently-asked-questions.html

 

[Megatron28]

Of course your natty test shut down. It shut down entirely. You were taking exogenous testosterone. Where did you get the idea that it stays turned on in the presence of exogenous testosterone?


Did you ever get blood work? What did your LH and FSH come in at? If not, why don't you run blood work tomorrow?

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Im getting bloodwork done today in a few hours. I've heard several stories of people who dont run any PCT, even long term. I actually have a friend who recently came off an 8 month cycle, with no pct. He hasnt had bloodwork done, but he appears to be recovered entirely. Hes over 10 weeks off everything, only lost about 7 lbs, and hasnt had any sides to speak of. Hence my question about people natty test not seeming to get shut off. Maybe it just recovered freakishly fast, but either way, it strikes me as something worth noting.

Lastly, the 'ology article was helpful so thanks! But im running into the same question, basically; should hcg be used in PCT if it wasnt used during the cycle (to try and compensate), or if it wasnt used during the cycle should it still remain absent entirely from PCT?

Thanks again! Ill post bloodwork results once i get them in.

 

[tury694]

Im getting bloodwork done today in a few hours. I've heard several stories of people who dont run any PCT, even long term. I actually have a friend who recently came off an 8 month cycle, with no pct. He hasnt had bloodwork done, but he appears to be recovered entirely. Hes over 10 weeks off everything, only lost about 7 lbs, and hasnt had any sides to speak of. Hence my question about people natty test not seeming to get shut off. Maybe it just recovered freakishly fast, but either way, it strikes me as something worth noting.

Lastly, the 'ology article was helpful so thanks! But im running into the same question, basically; should hcg be used in PCT if it wasnt used during the cycle (to try and compensate), or if it wasnt used during the cycle should it still remain absent entirely from PCT?

Thanks again! Ill post bloodwork results once i get them in.

You can recover without pct but it will be a much rougher road. People would manage to recover before pct drugs were invented but trust me if they had the modern tools of nolva and clomid at their disposal they would have used them.

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

You can recover without pct but it will be a much rougher road. People would manage to recover before pct drugs were invented but trust me if they had the modern tools of nolva and clomid at their disposal they would have used them.

Makes sense, im obviously going to use them, as i need my shit working normally asap, just thought it was interesting!
Also, as a follow up, i read on Tnation about tapering off to trt doses, then sub trt doses (with HCG), before starting PCT. Supposedly it extends your cycle a bit, but allows for a much easier transition and increased effectiveness/speed of PCT recovery. Thoughts?

 

[Megatron28]

This is covered in the FAQs link I gave you.

hCG is suppressive to the HPTA thus it should no be used during PCT (clomid and nolva). hCG should be used prior to PCT. Ideally the whole cycle to minimize/prevent testicular atrophy. Next best is using hCG prior to PCT to restore atrophied testicles.

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Thank you, i read the links and came away with that, i just wanted to make 100% sure. Im enlisting in a military org (not going to say which for privacy reason, a little paranoid like that), and i just want to make sure i dont fuck something up, and end up going into Basic with my test crashing or anything.
So ideally, itd be used thru the whole cycle, and you said next best would be after the end of the cycle but before pct, to restore testi function. However, if i havent experienced any atrophy/ejaculate decrease/sex side effects, should i skip the HCG altogether and just go straight to clomid/nolva? or should i still run HCG for the 10 days just in case? Thanks again, helping a lot with putting my mind at ease! Also got my blood test in 2 hours, so ill have some real data to work with soon enough.

 

[Megatron28]

I would run some hCG. It is highly unlikely that you didn't experience any atrophy unless your testicles were severely underdeveloped to begin with. You could have a doctor examine them to make sure they are normal size.

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

currently a fat grape each maybe? About normal, unless iv been ass-backwards about nut size my whole life ha. Ill probably end up running hcg then, if thats the popular recommendation. Im only 10 days out from my last test e shot now, would it be more effective to reinject, and taper my dose down over the next 4 weeks, while running hcg, then do pct? or would that not be very helpful? My only goal at this point is making sure i can restore normal function as soon as possible, so im just looking for the optimal way to do that.

 

[Megatron28]

According to Wikipedia:

In healthy European adult humans, average testicular volume is 18 cm³ per testis, with normal size ranging from 12 cm³ to 30 cm³.[8] The average testicle size after puberty measures up to around 2 inches long, 0.8 inches in breadth, and 1.2 inches in height (5 x 2 x 3 cm). Measurement in the living adult is done in two basic ways:

comparing the testicle with ellipsoids of known sizes (orchidometer).
measuring the length, depth and width with a ruler, a pair of calipers or ultrasound imaging.

The volume is then calculated using the formula for the volume of an ellipsoid: 4/3 ***960; × (length/2) × (width/2) × (depth/2).

 

[freshy]

This is covered in the FAQs link I gave you.

hCG is suppressive to the HPTA thus it should no be used during PCT (clomid and nolva). hCG should be used prior to PCT. Ideally the whole cycle to minimize/prevent testicular atrophy. Next best is using hCG prior to PCT to restore atrophied testicles.

When running hcg during the whole cycle, how many iu is ideal to prevent testicular atrophy.?

 

[Roush]

When running hcg during the whole cycle, how many iu is ideal to prevent testicular atrophy.?

500

 

[Megatron28]

When running hcg during the whole cycle, how many iu is ideal to prevent testicular atrophy.?

Here is what is says in the FAQ's thread your supposedly read.

How Much hCG do I need on cycle and when do I start?

Start using it from week 1. Timing does not matter, just spread it out. For cycling, 250 iu two to three times weekly will suffice. Do not use hCG back to back. If you choose twice weekly at that dose, run it every 3.5 days, just like you would with Test cyp. If you choose 3 times weekly, run it Monday, Wednesday and Friday. There's only so much stimulation that can occur with hCG, so you should never bother with doses in excess of 500 iu at once. If you're injecting 250 iu and after several weeks you're still experiencing some issues, increase your dose 100 iu's at a time, not to exceed 500 iu's twice weekly. Your weekly grand total should never have to exceed 1000 IU, ever.

If you inject your hCG subcutaneously, always be sure that you do not inject more than 0.6 CC at once. Volumes greater than 0.6 CC will result in lumps under your skin that can be quite uncomfortable and in some cases painful to the touch. This goes for anything that is injected subQ, including testosterone, B12 & hCG. This is volume related, not iu or milligram related. So be sure to mix your hCG with a concentration resulting in about half of a CC or less.

Injections in subcutaneous fat should be administered using a syringe with a high gauge. Some folks use a 27 gauge syringe, but I prefer a 29 gauge. Even a 31 gauge works great. Water based compounds get through the tiny bore with ease.

If injecting in a muscle, do not flex it. Just relax and inject. If injecting subQ, just find a good spot about 2 to 6 inches from the naval and inject.

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Alright, labs are back! I had test, Estradiol, FSH, and LH tested. They fucked up my test test (ha), but the rest are good, and im assuming test levels arent very important at this point anyway.
FSH = <0.7 L
LH = <0.2 L
Estradiol = 29
Test = n/a

Clearly my FSH/LH levels are fucked, so my current plan is; 4 weeks of 750iu of HCG/week and Test prop tapering from 400 mgs/week, down to 250. then continuing the TestP taper for another 1.5 weeks. then 4 days after my last TestP shot, beginning Clomid&Nolvadex pct for 6 weeks. Then have my Bloodwork redone 5 weeks after completion to make sure everything's kosher. Would this be an effective plan? Thanks again!

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Here is what is says in the FAQ's thread your supposedly read.[/I]

Also i feel like i have to point out that Freshy is not me. I did actually read the article lol.

 

[tury694]

Alright, labs are back! I had test, Estradiol, FSH, and LH tested. They fucked up my test test (ha), but the rest are good, and im assuming test levels arent very important at this point anyway.
FSH = <0.7 L
LH = <0.2 L
Estradiol = 29
Test = n/a

Clearly my FSH/LH levels are fucked, so my current plan is; 4 weeks of 750iu of HCG/week and Test prop tapering from 400 mgs/week, down to 250. then continuing the TestP taper for another 1.5 weeks. then 4 days after my last TestP shot, beginning Clomid&Nolvadex pct for 6 weeks. Then have my Bloodwork redone 5 weeks after completion to make sure everything's kosher. Would this be an effective plan? Thanks again!

Those levels are supposed to be low on a cycle bud. Your estraidol is well within range it seems.

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

Those levels are supposed to be low on a cycle bud. Your estraidol is well within range it seems.

Shit, really? i thought low numbers were a sign of needing HCG to restore function. I took that test 11 days after my last shot of Test e. Do those numbers indicate anything about how HCG should be involved? Again, im just asking because time is a huge factor, so if i dont need the 4 weeks of HCG its only be a pain to do em. Thanks!

 

[TheEnhancedNatty]

So in further research i came across this protocol: 4 ***8211; 6 weeks Total PCT time (depending on recovery ability of the individual)
Weeks 1 ***8211; 2:
- HCG at 1000iu/E2D
- Aromasin (Exemestane) at 25mg/day
- Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) at 40mg/day
Weeks 2 ***8211; 6:
- Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) at 20mg/day

i found it here (**************/post-cycle-therapy/), and beyond curiosity about the pros/cons of that protocol vs 4wks of HCG/test, then 5 wks Nolva/clomid, the article itself is extremely interesting, and worth a read!