Ozzy27
Olympian Bodybuilder
This is a very good read posted by Vult on CM......
By RealGains
This info I have gleaned from self research, trial and error, from my endochrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years.
This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"
First of all I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.
In reality what usually happens is that many(not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons......poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.
If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly overtrain and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibilty of injury which also will hinder gainskeeping.
You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.
As an estimate of natural max.......the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10" and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a deadlift of about 500 pounds without steroids.
ANCILLARIES....HCG
Dare I say that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid) for good hpta recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid hpta recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.
Now you will recover hpta without hcg, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.
HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It limics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimualtes testosterone production in the testes.
It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use.
If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisen size..NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessmant of testicular size....after all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.
NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you sceptics. As little as 100mg a weekof testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.
HPTA RECOVERY
The hormones that drive the HPT axis(LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production......trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months(if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention phycological isssues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.
* SO it is important for "optimal" gainskeeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.
HOW TO USE HCG
It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is DURING a cycle.
HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.
Take it at 500iu's every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle.
Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). In this method one injects a high dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) right near the end ofa cycle but before clomid. The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days latter and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's....total time three weeks.
No use taking clomid or nolav with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will supress the hpta all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.
WARNING.....if you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.
By RealGains
This info I have gleaned from self research, trial and error, from my endochrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years.
This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"
First of all I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.
In reality what usually happens is that many(not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons......poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.
If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly overtrain and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibilty of injury which also will hinder gainskeeping.
You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.
As an estimate of natural max.......the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10" and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a deadlift of about 500 pounds without steroids.
ANCILLARIES....HCG
Dare I say that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid) for good hpta recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid hpta recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.
Now you will recover hpta without hcg, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.
HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It limics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimualtes testosterone production in the testes.
It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use.
If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisen size..NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessmant of testicular size....after all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.
NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you sceptics. As little as 100mg a weekof testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.
HPTA RECOVERY
The hormones that drive the HPT axis(LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production......trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months(if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention phycological isssues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.
* SO it is important for "optimal" gainskeeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.
HOW TO USE HCG
It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is DURING a cycle.
HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.
Take it at 500iu's every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle.
Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). In this method one injects a high dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) right near the end ofa cycle but before clomid. The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days latter and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's....total time three weeks.
No use taking clomid or nolav with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will supress the hpta all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.
WARNING.....if you use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.
