Legs/Push/Pull 2x/8 Days - Critique Please!

[Conrad0032]

It's a longer post, but a huge thanks to everyone who reads and helps/gives their opinion!
Some stats - 19, 6'2", 215lbs, 11% BF, training for 4 years, ectomorph mainly.

So I'm thinking of doing a Legs/Push/Pull/rest repeat workout routine. I've done 1x a week and I just feel like I'm not giving myself 100% of the possible growth that I could. I've done Layne Norton's PHAT (2 power days, and 3 hypertrophy days) training routine and I liked it a lot, however, I've done quite a few cycles of it so I figured I'd try something new. I want to build up power in my legs and OHP; and I want to build size in every other aspect of my body. Here is what I wrote up:

Day 1 - (Squat) Legs
Low Bar Back Squat - Alternate between - Work up to a 1-5 rep max and 3-5 sets of 6
Low Bar Low Box Squat - 3-5 sets of 5
Band GHR - 3x6-10
Hip Thrusts - 3x6-10
Standing Calf Raises+Leg Raises - 5 sets

Day 2 - (Chest focused) Push
Incline Bench Press - 3-5x5
Decline Bench Press - 3x6-10
Arnold Press - 3-4x8-12
Cable Cross Over - 3x10-15
Skull Crushers - 4x6-10
Rope Push Down - 3x10-15

Day 3 - (Width) Pull
Wide Pull Ups - 4x6-10
T-Bar Row - 5x6-10
One Arm Machine Pull Down - 3-4x10-15
DB Side Raises 5-6 sets of 8-20
Barbell Curls - 4 sets of 6-10
Reverse Grip Curls - 2-3 sets of 8-12

Day 4 - Off

Day 5 - (Deadlift) Legs
Deadlift - Alternate between - 3-5 sets of 6 and work up to a 1-5 rep max
ATG Front Squat - 4-5x6-10
Deficit DL - 3-5 sets of 5
Standing Hamstring Curls - 4x8-15
Standing Calf Raise+Seated Calf Raise Super set - 4 sets

Day 6 - (Shoulder Focus) Push
Stand Military Press - 3-5x5
Flat DB Press - 5x6-8
Incline DB Flies - 3-4x8-15
Dips - 3x6-10
Straight Bar Push Down - 4x8-12

Day 7 - (Thickness) Pull
Barbell Row - 5x6-10
V-Bar Pull Down - 4x8-12
Face Pulls+DB Shrugs - 4x8-15
DB Row - 3x8+ reps
Hammer Curls - 4x6-10
Spider Curls - 2-3x8-12

Day 8 - Off

Repeat!

Now my questions are:
1) Does this look manageable? I'll find time to do it, but do you think this will be over training? I was thinking every 5th/6th cycle (1 cycle = legs/push/pull/repeat) I'd do a deload and do 60% of the weight I'd normally do. So I'd get 3 days of easier lifting to recover joints. Also I will be bulking at around 4200 calories/day (diet's always on point) and will try my best to get 8-9 hours of sleep/night.
2) I want to throw in side delts one more time in the split. Maybe Day 6 or 7, I just don't know how to go about this fluently I guess. Any ideas? Maybe put upright rows in on Day 7? Not sure.
3) If this was your split, what would you change? (please let me know how you normally train so I can compare that style to mine)
4) Do you have any other recommended workout routines I can look at/structure mine off of?

 

[DreDay187]

First off are you on cycle or natty? I'm hoping the answer is natty considering your age but it would change my recommendations for sure.

1) 4200cals doesn't mean much without a TDEE but I'm going to assume you have your diet down. Just list your macros and TDEE to make sure you're getting enough of everything and don't forget veggies for micros lol. The manageable part of the question depends on your answer to my question above. I also would not plan a deload week every 5th/6th cycle. If you're making progress there's no reason to go backwards and deload until you stall. What I would do as a substitute is keep the main compound lifts just how they were and cut back on the volume and intensity of the other lifts. For example squats should stay the same weight and go up on day 1 but you could reduce the calf raises or skip them for the week.

I would look into a Westside conjugate split, Texas Method, Bill Starr/Madcow 5x5, Wendler's 5/3/1 are all good programs.

This is being overly technical but you said you want to get "power" up but all you have are strength exercises. Power exercises are the oly lifts and they are the only lifts that can really build power. I think you meant strength but jus wanted to point out the difference.

 

[Conrad0032]

yeah I'm natty. Prob start up at 21, least that's the plan.

Yeah the diet's down I think, I wouldn't worry about that too much. The deloads was advised from a buddy of mine, but that makes sense. Honestly I wouldn't have taken the deloads probably xD Thanks.

I've done westside before and wasn't too fond of it, I feel like I need an old school elite total to make that as effective as possible (I'm hoping to get my squat past 500, OHP at 225, and deadlift past 600 in the next 3 months or so). My lifts are a bit too high to be doing 5x5, I think. Use to do it. Wendler's 5/3/1 I've heard good things, but I hate the deload every 4th week, seems excessive for a 4 day split... Just a lazy man's routine in my eyes. Texas method looks legit, never read too in depth though.

Good catch on the correct terminology. Sorry about that. I'll keep that in mind whenever I talk about strength and power now.

thanks for reading my long ass post
Anyone else have stuff to add?

 

[DreDay187]

I'd wait till after 23/24 but its your choice in the end.

You may not like it but Westside is extremely effective, they are after all the strongest gym in the world, having a great pool of genetics doesn't hurt either haha.

That's the one thing about Wendler's system I don't like either, the slower progress. Regardless it is an effective program and will work.

My personal fav is Texas Method. It goes on a volume, light, intensity scheme. First day is volume which stresses enough to cause adaptation, then the light day is active recovery to recover from the first days workout so by the last day (intensity day), you can get a new PR which you'll run the first day the following week as your volume weight. It's slightly more complex but makes accommodations for the lifts you want to stress. My choice would go with this program. If you want to learn the nuts and bolts of it I suggest picking up the book Practical Programming by Mark Rippetoe.

One final comment is I know you meant strength but you should also think about added power and power based lifts to your training. When you work a fast twitch muscle fiber you get better at that speed and all slower speeds but when working a slow twitch fiber you don't get better fast twitch. Adding oly lifts like cleans, snatches, jerks will help you better recruit fast twich muscle fibers and make you stronger at other things as well bc of the principle.

 

[iwillsucceed]

this is what i do...
day1 heavy chest day
day2 light back
day3 heavy legs
day4 light chest
day5 heavy back
day6 light legs
day7 rest

and ive been making great gains!

 

[Conrad0032]

DreDay, I'll def look into Texas method as a next routine after this one. Seems interesting. Also, I know westside is a fantastic routine, as shown by their atheletes' strength. My leg workouts are pretty much based off of their training style if you didn't notice: work up to a rep max, and then do accessory movements for your weaknesses. My squat weakness is out of the hole, hence low box squat, and deadlift is off the floor, hence deficits. Then everyone needs hamstring work . I clean everyone now and again for fun. I'll see what I can do to fit them in. Not a fan of snatches, but cleans I definitely see the benefits.

Iwillsucceed, good to know it's working for you. Always nice to get some reassurance ha. I would do it that way but I need deadlifts/squats away from my back day because after them my lats are slightly sore, especially deadlifts. So I figured 48 hours of rest would suffice before hitting them directly.

thanks both of you for responses.

 

[DreDay187]

DreDay, I'll def look into Texas method as a next routine after this one. Seems interesting. Also, I know westside is a fantastic routine, as shown by their atheletes' strength. My leg workouts are pretty much based off of their training style if you didn't notice: work up to a rep max, and then do accessory movements for your weaknesses. My squat weakness is out of the hole, hence low box squat, and deadlift is off the floor, hence deficits. Then everyone needs hamstring work . I clean everyone now and again for fun. I'll see what I can do to fit them in. Not a fan of snatches, but cleans I definitely see the benefits.

Iwillsucceed, good to know it's working for you. Always nice to get some reassurance ha. I would do it that way but I need deadlifts/squats away from my back day because after them my lats are slightly sore, especially deadlifts. So I figured 48 hours of rest would suffice before hitting them directly.

thanks both of you for responses.

I highly HIGHLY recommend you getting the book then brother, it is a FANTASTIC read even if you don't do the Texas Method. The book is about programming training in many many varieties but its does concentrate on the Texas Method for intermediates and has many different advanced routines as well. There's so much good info in there it's unbelievable. If you need any help designing a template from there let me know, I've dabbled in it before with great results and have read into it a lot.

I didn't GEt it 100% in your program design but I guessed that after working up to your maxes everything else was to address weaknesses. Another option on top of box squats that I've found to be helpful is just paused squats without the box. Once you get down into the bottom position of the squat, do not use the hamstring stretch reflex to aid in drive out of the hole. Instead pause for a long 1 or quick 2 count then drive up from a dead stop. It's the same as sitting on a box for the bottom half strength but it takes out the risk of spinal compression in box squats. If you've never done them be very careful. You don't want to fall on the box and compress your spine.

Overall I really like most of your exercise selection, few machines and whole shitload of heavy compound lifts. You're one of not many on here with a typical BB'er split hahahah. I love it! I think though that without the added recovery aspect of AAS and if you have any sort of life/work outside the gym you will hit a wall in that its too much overall volume for you but who knows, you may have become adapted to high volume training and do well with it. Try it out and pay attention the the symptoms of over training. They can come on very very quickly so pay close attention.

Cleans have become my favorite lift along with squats. I know that progress in my cleans have helped drive progress in almost wvery single one of my other lifts. It's not direct help or accessory work obviously but the ability to tap into a high power supply at will is nice when driving up a heavy squat or coming off the chest in bench. That explosive factor was missing before I seriously added cleans to my routine. Bill Starr, a famous strength coach, said in his book titled the strongest shall survive, that if he had only room for 1 lift in an athletes program it would be the power clean. Just food for thought.

Another idea: at the weight you use for dead lifts, you may be better off splitting deadlift training into two parts. Full conventional deads are hard to recover from at those weights so possibly switching away from them in favor of sets of rack pulls and halting deads? By splitting the movement into 2 separate parts you can focus on your weak point and avoid much of the systemic fatigue applied by a full ROM deadlift.

Your thread has despaired my interest in jumping back into Texas Method bro. I went back to starting strength for my first cycle. It's a beginners program with linear progression since I figured the added recovery and protein synthesis would allow me the faster progress afforded beginners. I'm still milking some of the lifts but can't wait to jump back into Texas method

 

[Conrad0032]

I'll take you up on that offer in a month or two >. Expect a PM haha. Always down to try out new workout routines and see where it takes me. Hell, as long as I'm giving it 100% I'll make progress eh?

I have done paused squats as well, I may throw those in after a few weeks instead of low box squats. Just to switch things up and keep it interesting. I have done box squats before so form shouldn't be a problem... until the heavy weights come haha. I do have anderson front squats in the deadlift day as well, so that's similar to that as well.

Thanks, I figured if I want to be better than others I'll need to do something different than other people eh? Just my philosophy. I feel bodybuilding splits work best for people on gear, as they can make use of those 30 sets of back and whatnot. I seem to start giving less effort after around 12 sets or so depending on the movement. Gotta keep those compound movements as always I will look for overtraining, but seeing how PHAT went, I believe I'll be fine. All I do at school is studying chemical engineering and lift haha. Only got time to go out fridays and saturdays if that xD, but I'm more than happy with what I'm doing. Got all my partying out in highschool haha . I can always toss in a 3 day deload if I'm feeling really, really beat down and pick up from there, but I don't see that happening in 2 months of this.

I definitely agree cleans are fantastic. I use to do them before deadlifts and it seemed to prime my CNS even though I went balls to the wall on them ha. They are fantastic for traps as well and I've been meaning to build those up as much as possible. Any specific day you'd throw them in for this routine? Maybe I'd drop the deficits on Day 5 and throw in cleans before deadlifts eh? I might do that a couple times.

I'll just listen to my body. I have a pretty good idea of when I need to back off. I've found I can't deadlift heavy 1-3 reps weak after weak but every other seems to work rather well. It's pretty weird, my rack pull is about my deadlift, maybe 10lbs more. I'm pulling from right below my knees. I don't have problems with lock out either, so wouldn't see rack pulls as being a good overload/conjugate exercise for DLs. I looked up halting deadlifts, as I didn't know what those were, and they seem legit. I'll read into them some more and give them a try to see how they feel. When you say two parts do you mean two workouts a day? Or two different Day 5 workouts?

thanks for the long and detailed response. Really helped me out.

 

[DreDay187]

I'll take you up on that offer in a month or two >. Expect a PM haha. Always down to try out new workout routines and see where it takes me. Hell, as long as I'm giving it 100% I'll make progress eh?

I have done paused squats as well, I may throw those in after a few weeks instead of low box squats. Just to switch things up and keep it interesting. I have done box squats before so form shouldn't be a problem... until the heavy weights come haha. I do have anderson front squats in the deadlift day as well, so that's similar to that as well.

Thanks, I figured if I want to be better than others I'll need to do something different than other people eh? Just my philosophy. I feel bodybuilding splits work best for people on gear, as they can make use of those 30 sets of back and whatnot. I seem to start giving less effort after around 12 sets or so depending on the movement. Gotta keep those compound movements as always I will look for overtraining, but seeing how PHAT went, I believe I'll be fine. All I do at school is studying chemical engineering and lift haha. Only got time to go out fridays and saturdays if that xD, but I'm more than happy with what I'm doing. Got all my partying out in highschool haha . I can always toss in a 3 day deload if I'm feeling really, really beat down and pick up from there, but I don't see that happening in 2 months of this.

I definitely agree cleans are fantastic. I use to do them before deadlifts and it seemed to prime my CNS even though I went balls to the wall on them ha. They are fantastic for traps as well and I've been meaning to build those up as much as possible. Any specific day you'd throw them in for this routine? Maybe I'd drop the deficits on Day 5 and throw in cleans before deadlifts eh? I might do that a couple times.

I'll just listen to my body. I have a pretty good idea of when I need to back off. I've found I can't deadlift heavy 1-3 reps weak after weak but every other seems to work rather well. It's pretty weird, my rack pull is about my deadlift, maybe 10lbs more. I'm pulling from right below my knees. I don't have problems with lock out either, so wouldn't see rack pulls as being a good overload/conjugate exercise for DLs. I looked up halting deadlifts, as I didn't know what those were, and they seem legit. I'll read into them some more and give them a try to see how they feel. When you say two parts do you mean two workouts a day? Or two different Day 5 workouts?

thanks for the long and detailed response. Really helped me out.

First off, not a problem brother, you're very welcome. I haven't done BB splits for years now and absolutely move "this" method of training. I put detail into my responses bc its what I do for myself, what I research, and what I believe works. Maybe between the two of us we can start convincing some of our friends on here to try this style of training out hahaha. Feel free anytime to PM, I could probably learn a thing or two myself from detailed discussion of this stuff or at least remember some things I've forgotten. It will def stimulate the brain to think though! Once you read that book you'll see that 100% isn't always enough. It's got to be a smart 100%. For novices, anything will work to make them stronger so 100% is enough. You're last a novice stage and def intermediate level + with those lifts. This means that you need to rely more than just hard work but SMART programming to keep progress going. I think you have an amazing grasp of this considering your age and this early start will help you much in years to come in your training.

If you're familiar with box squats than by all means use them. I tell people to use the paused squats first and work up to heavy box squats bc of that spinal compression. You might also start benefiting from a dynamic day and maximal day for lower body, one to work at maximal strength and the other for maximum power (not quite as effective as the oly lifts IMO but more translatable to the lift), chains, and bands to work your strength through the different phases of the lifts.

I agree with the splits and AAS but I just concluded my first cycle a few weeks ago and went did t do a "split" lol. I have this in my head! Do you know the early symptoms of over training? Constant fatigue, increased injuries, loss of appetite, loss of libido, depression, difficulty with sleep, etc. just to name a few buddy. I don't remember PHAT routine but in assuming from the way you say it its close to GVT with high volume or DCT with working till failure? You seem pretty mature for your age and your lifts are definitely nice so you should respond amazingly well to a well thought out cycle when the time comes, this is not an endorsement to start cycling now at your age hahaha. Years ago I thought of chemical engineering as a major since I love chem but always had a thing for mechanical and electrical engineering.

They are great for traps but I've also noticed my whole upper back, shoulders, etc are much more powerful. It helped me last a sticking point in the press, I'm better able to use hip drive and maximum fiber recruitment in bench (one of my weakest lifts), and in squats I get the explosion from the hole and my sticking point is a little higher now bc I got stronger at the bottom, and for dead lifts this is Rippetoe himself said about cleans (don't think it's word for word though but a paraphrase): power cleans add an element of power to pulls from the floor!!! What's your goals exactly? Do you want to compete in physique or poweiifting? You just train for you? That would change my recommendations but I'd do them 1-2x/wk one day do 5sets of heavy triples and the other day pyramid up to a heavy max single. Power cleans don't benefit from high volume. Day 5 would be a good day to add them. Since you're not a weightlifter (competing in oly lifts) you don't need to do them first but I would def cut out another exercise or two on the days you add cleans. Experiment with before and after deads and see which way provides minimum interference with the other lift. Maybe even switch the order every cycle. If you want to add them for a second day it's even better. Do the 5x3 trips on dead lift day AFTER deads unless you're way too fatigued. Then on Day 2 add the power cleans before the bench press and pyramid up to a heavy max single. Example if your 1RM is 225lbs do 135x5, 165x3, 185x2, 210x1, 215x1, 230x 1 to set a new PR. Use the volume of power cleans on day 5 to drive adaptation for new intensity in day 2.

Yes you can't dead heavy bc of the systemic fatigue it places on you is unequaled with any other lift, bar none! When weights get heavy on deads you have to start splitting it into 2novements and programming them Separate. It's still a good idea to do deads 1-2days/month though to apply the "separated" strength into one cohesive lift/movement. If you're rack pulls aren't much stronger than deads than you're starting from a low position in the rack pull which would then have some carryover to the halting dead and full ROM dead. The different height you start a rack pull the more or less carryover it has. I've included some pics at the end from Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe about halting deads and rack pulls for you. Maybe you already know it but they could serve as reminders.

When I say two parts I mean that 1 full ROM deadlift is eauivalent/= to 1 halting deadlift + 1 rack pull. Train the full movement by training its 2 subsidiaries. Do not do halting deads the same day as deads. You do them for higher reps and since the ROM is reduced you'll be using higher weight when you work up to it: 3-5sets of 8. For rack pulls you can use brutally heavy weights and less sets/reps 2-4sets 5 reps or less of heavy weight. Barbell shrugs are actually a form of a rack pull but they start above the knee.

I hope this helps you Conrad!

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[Conrad0032]

Same here, always learning and keeping an open mind. Yeah I always tell myself I'll work 100% smarter, but I always just end up going 100% physically haha, I can't restrain myself. I definitely believe it will benefit me to back off here and there as well. Thanks too, I usually throw myself in the intermediate area also. Hopefully I'll get where I want to be in the next ten or 15 years.

I use to toss in a dynamic day, however, I found it little use to me. Although, I sometimes throw in dynamic squats after my heavy squats and I find those to go very smoothly. Definitely help me remember my form and get that speed in. Definitely agree cleans are a better way to go though. Really takes some fortitude and explosiveness to get some big weights onto your shoulders. Also works about everything as it has a deadlift motion, upright row, and front squat motion. Throw in a press too if you get the jerk haha. That's where it becomes difficult to decide where to throw them in.

I just train for myself for now, hopefully get into strongman and powerlifting eventually, although I don't flat bench ever so I'd need to do that if I wanted to get into powerlifting. Figure my incline will transfer decently to it. I always throw in cleans before deadlifts because I see them as more technical and there is more possibility of injury, so I like to do them fresh. Also, as I said, they have little to no negative effect on my deads if done before them. I'll toss them in one time a week, see how it goes, and if I like it I'll throw it in a 2nd day. I almost always pyramid as you recommend so least I got that down haha xD

Ohhhh okay the 2 movements are on the same day, that makes sense. Never thought of doing that, that actually seems legit. Be a good way to recover my CNS and such when I'm feeling run down. Perhaps alternate the dead day between actual DLs and those 2 movements?

You've helped me tremendously and gave me some great new ideas to throw into this split. Once again thanks Dreday. Btw I read those articles on clean/dirty foods you posted on some other thread I made. Have some good points in those as well. The 10% rule I've heard of before and seems logical. Although, I'll remain eating clean and have my occasional cheat snacks of 100 calories here and there haha

 

[DreDay187]

Same here, always learning and keeping an open mind. Yeah I always tell myself I'll work 100% smarter, but I always just end up going 100% physically haha, I can't restrain myself. I definitely believe it will benefit me to back off here and there as well. Thanks too, I usually throw myself in the intermediate area also. Hopefully I'll get where I want to be in the next ten or 15 years.

I use to toss in a dynamic day, however, I found it little use to me. Although, I sometimes throw in dynamic squats after my heavy squats and I find those to go very smoothly. Definitely help me remember my form and get that speed in. Definitely agree cleans are a better way to go though. Really takes some fortitude and explosiveness to get some big weights onto your shoulders. Also works about everything as it has a deadlift motion, upright row, and front squat motion. Throw in a press too if you get the jerk haha. That's where it becomes difficult to decide where to throw them in.

I just train for myself for now, hopefully get into strongman and powerlifting eventually, although I don't flat bench ever so I'd need to do that if I wanted to get into powerlifting. Figure my incline will transfer decently to it. I always throw in cleans before deadlifts because I see them as more technical and there is more possibility of injury, so I like to do them fresh. Also, as I said, they have little to no negative effect on my deads if done before them. I'll toss them in one time a week, see how it goes, and if I like it I'll throw it in a 2nd day. I almost always pyramid as you recommend so least I got that down haha xD

Ohhhh okay the 2 movements are on the same day, that makes sense. Never thought of doing that, that actually seems legit. Be a good way to recover my CNS and such when I'm feeling run down. Perhaps alternate the dead day between actual DLs and those 2 movements?

You've helped me tremendously and gave me some great new ideas to throw into this split. Once again thanks Dreday. Btw I read those articles on clean/dirty foods you posted on some other thread I made. Have some good points in those as well. The 10% rule I've heard of before and seems logical. Although, I'll remain eating clean and have my occasional cheat snacks of 100 calories here and there haha

Keeping an open mind is probably just as important as the actual training part. Without an open mind you'll just end up spinning your wheels on methods that flat out don't work. I actually just rewrote my training program while at work today and it has me squatting Tues, Thurs, Sat. Tuesday and Saturday are the heavy days and Thursday will be light/active recovery but am unsure if I want to include light squats, front squats, or dynamic day of squats. Maybe I'll skip the dynamic day for now after reading your eperience with them haha.

alternating between the two: doing deads one workout and then the 2 partials next day is a solid idea. you might get 2 of each in a month if recovery is fine or you might only be able to deadlift heavy once a month when the poundages continue progression. Youre welcome brother and I make no claim that you have to eat "dirty" or 10% " dirty". All I say is get the majority of your intake from whole and minimally processed foods, meet nutritional needs, and enjoy what you eat. There is absolutely no reason to eat ANYTHING that you hate.