Monster's Insulin Primer!

[LAWNSAVER]

This is one of my Favorites!!

Ok, lets have a look at insulin.
Its highly anabolic and non-androgenic, and in case some of you are in the dark (I'd like to think we're all clear on anabolic versus androgenic, but ya never know) I'll briefly touch on the subject before diving in... if youre ok on anabolic/androgenic concepts, skip to the INSULIN part...

ANDROGENIC VERSUS ANABOLIC

ANABOLIC is defined as "The process of constructive metabolism" or of building complex substances out of simple substances.
The way your body processes protien, carbohydrates, and fat (all simple substances) and makes muscle (a complex substance) is ANABOLISM.

ANDROGENIC is basically defined as pertaining to male sex characteristics.

ANDROGENIC/ANABOLIC

"Steroids" are actually called "Anabolic Androgenic Steroids." They accomplish "anabolism" through "anabolic" pathways, some being more androgenic (testosterone esters) and some less (winstrol, anavar, primobolan, ect...).
Most often, with reduced androgenic properties comes reduced anabolic properties, but it isnt always cut and dry. If anyone is interested I'll go into it another time, but lets head toward the insulin topic.


INSULIN: NonAndrogenic but Anabolic

Insulin is NOT a sex hormone. It is not related in any way to testosterone, or to estrogen for that matter. It is a product of the pancreas as opposed to testosterone which is a product of the HPTA, pituitary, gonadal, leydig, mishmash of interconnected glands...


WHY IS INSULIN ANABOLIC

So why is insulin anabolic then? Insulin is a partitioning agent. A "shuttle" if you will.
Picture insulin as a bus. Nutrients board the bus, and insulin pulls away and drops off the nutrients at the proper bus stop. That is basically what it does, and for all intents and purposes that is everything you need to know to understand how it works.
So by insulin shuttling these nutrient where they need to go, it enables anabolism and is therefor anabolic!


WHY NOT JUST TAKE CARBS TO RAISE INSULIN

Well, the amount of carbs you would need to take in to increase natural insulin levels to the degree a 10 i.u. shot would would be far more dangerous than using insuiln (and using insulin is NOT that hard OR dangerous).
Carbs at that level would eventually lead to diabetes and fat gains.
If insulin is a bus taking nutrients where they need to go, then exogenous insulin is a bullet train! It can hold far more nutrients than a normal naturally produced burst of insulin can, and it works quicker. Exogenous insulin is the most efficient way to accomplish glycogen overcompensation, period.


WHAT KIND DO I TAKE

Im a major supporter of fast acting insulin. The faster the better!
Currently he fastest acting insulin available is Humalog. It is active in 15 minutes, peaks in 1 hour and clears the system around 2 hours.
Next would be Humalin-R. It is active in about 30 minutes, peaks at the 2 hour mark, and clears the system at the 4 hour mark.
"Biophasics" are mixtures of fast and slow acting insulins, but are not the best choice in my opinion, due to an active dose being in you throughout the day. The reason you dont want that will be covered in the "HOW DO I USE IT" section.
There are also Humalin-L and Humalin-S, but they are long acting, and are no more use to me than the Biophasics. There are also porccine and bovine derived insulin, but I am against injecting animal derived substances.

WHEN (AND HOW MUCH) TO USE

Im going to assume we want to avoid any fat gains at all. Even bulking I dont like to gain any unneccesary fat, so Im going to disuss it from that stand point.
The ultra conservative time to use insulin is post-workout. Most people who are concerned about fat dont go over 10 i.u. as a total dose.
Some people us it on waking, before breakfast, since your body is in a basically carb depleted state. Its the kind of thng you have to try for yourslef, and if it works for you, do it. If you thnk youre gaining fat, stop. BUT! Dont start it at both times at once. Make sure you get your post workout dosage worked out and that you know it is not causing you any fat gains before you try pre-breakfast shots. That way you can take out all the guess work as to where any fat gains may come from.


DISPELLING A FEW MYTHS

There is a commoly held perception that you MUSt take in 10grams of carbs per I.U. of insulin, some radicals say 5 grams... well, theyre both wrong.
I got curious about this when I discovered that my insulin dependant diabetic friend didnt even keep track of what she ate post injection. She would feel hypoglycemic after a shot and take a Glucose Tablet.
A glucose tablet is only 5 grams of glucose (carbs)! So I started to think, "Hmmm, mabye everyone is off point on this?"
After conducting a few experiments on myself, I found that you can go considerably lower in carbs than people previously believed.
Now it doesnt make sense to go low in carbs, because that defies the purpose of using the insulin in the first place, but it does free us from having to use so much that there might be some "spill over" in carbs that cant be utilized. So it really makes us able to have more freedom in carbs choices and amounts.
The "risk" in insulin use is not as risky as people believe. Any person with an ounce of sense can see the warning signs of a problem coming, and remedy the situation.

HOW DO I DO IT

If you look at the drug store, you can get these little pen cases that hold a loaded insulin syringe. They are great for our need, you load up the syringe, and put it in the case, and throw it in your bag/purse/whatever. After the workout, head to a bathroom stall and inject it under the skin! Pull up a little skin from the abdomen or upper thigh (anywhere will do, but these are easiest) and inject. Do not shoot into a muscle. This rushes the dose and makes it harder to predict when it will spike.
So now you have 15 minutes to get some carbs (actually you have longer, since the initial hit of the dose is mild and easy to cope with, the spike is a little more harsh, but still nothing unbearable. If you use the carbs, you probobly wont notice the initial dose OR the spike.)
(this is based on Humalog at 10 i.u.)
I use a powder with a 20% simple/80% complex ratio (actually its 17% mono, 5% di, 7% tri, 5%tetra, and 66% penta-saccharides). I use about 60grams of carbs to the 10 i.u. of insulin.
This gives me a nice solid stream of carbs to overcompensate my depleted muscles, but not so many that I risk fat accumulation from the excess.
Now you are good to go till around 1 hour after the initial injection. At this 1 hour mark, the majority of the dose hits your system. Now is the time to eat a good balanced (AND FAT FREE!) meal. The fat-free emphasis will be explained in the POTENTIAL PROBLEMS section. This balance meal of carbs and protien and little to know fat can be anything from a protien drink and a crab drink, to a low fat MRP, to some lean chicken and rice... your choice.
After this meal, you dont need to pay anymore consideration to the insulin, it will gradually decrease and will be out of your system at the 2 hour mark.
Till you get accustmed to the use of insulin, start low and slow. Start at 2 i.u. then 5 i.u. then 7 i.u. then 10 i.u. That way you get a better understanding of any hypoglycemia you may encounter. Ive went as high as 35 i.u., just to try it, but at a certain point a higher dosage doesnt yield any better results (except fat!)

POTENTIAL PROBLEMS

Insulin is relativly safe. If you dont take in any carbs after using it, your body will give you PLENNTY of warning! Youll feel dizzy, tired, achey... hypoglycemic. What is happening is your body has no glycogen to use as fuel. Your muscles re depleted from working out, and often times youve tapped your liver for any remaining glycogen. The insulin does, searching for glycogen to use, takes the rest from your liver, and in the absence of carbs coming in to make more, it heads for the brain.
Your brain uses glucose as its primary fuel source (a little fat, too.) Thats why you get dizzy and light headed, the same with during a ketogenic diet... low glucose equals light headedness.
So if you forget about the carbs, youll get a warning from yuor body, and you can get your ass in gear and get some carbs in you.
If you get to the point where youre nauseated, just drink some sugary beverage and get some carbs in you quickly. Youre still a long long way from any major danger, but dont mess around.
"Fat Free" I said earlier about the 1 hour mark meal. During the 2 hours of the dosage duration, you should avoid fat like it is the plauge! Insulins partitioning properties are as effective at sending fat to the fat stores as it is carbs and protien to muscles!
So till the dose is clear of your system, NO FAT! (Thats another reason why I advocate the fastest acting insulin you can get.)


Well, I cant think of anything else off hand that needs to be said, but if I missed anything, just ask. I may have taken somethng for granted and figured everyone would know or assume on their own...

 

[Doc Banner]

me too, I'm just a tad unsure of how to do sub-Q injections

 

[amadeus]

I'm kinda wondering what other anabolica, if any, to take in conjunction with the insulin, or if I can just take the insulin and see gains? I don't really know much about it aside from what you and doggcrap posted, I read part of the thread by "doggcrap" on animalkits bb, and I'm a little confused as to "stacking" it, if you will.

 

[Depotrone]

Thanks Lawnsaver,, I will be using slin on my next cycle for the first time,, you post has been the most helpful

 

[Derexan]

i dont think i could never take anything insulin related....after my friend had a diabetic seasure while he was driving the car and i was in it

 

[nicksaunt]

Okay....readers please take caution. Insulin IS risky! And saying"anyone with an ounce of sense can see the warning signs" is ridiculous. Do not trust someone telling you to put this into your body unless they have a Ph.D. My nephew DIED last month due to this process and there are many more risks involved than just making sure you have enough carbs. There are plenty of factors that are not even mentioned in this article. Please be warned, this is dangerous!

 

[maxresults]

can you expand upon that nicksaunt?
What are some of the other factors?
thanks

 

[nickk23]

Hey, im an insulin dependent diabetic so im administering my insulin all day long. I guess im posting to offer advice on any questions people may have (if i can help), and also learn a bit from others as to how i can apply this to my bodybuilding.

Im not quite sure what nicksaunt meant when he said 'other dangers' but i do believe insulin to be fairly dangerous if you don't know what you are doing (im sorry to hear about your nephew nick, very saddening news). Fundamentally though, I know from hypoglycaemic experience that to remedy any ill effects, all you need is a quickly absorbed dextrose solution in sufficient quantity, for you non-diabetics, more is probably better since fat gain is secondary to loss of life im sure. A suitable precaution is to buy a blood glucose measuring meter which will tell you if you are 'going low' in blood sugar although your body will give the warning signs also, however you can become too accustomed to these.

One danger i have heard is that insulin abuse by healthy individuals can, like most hormonal supplements, lead to a downregulation in natural insulin production, potentially in the long run leading to type I (insulin-dependent) diabetes. I am no authority however on this matter and cannot say what is defined 'abuse' or how long you should cycle insulin use.

Doc Banner - injections are easy (cannot compare cos never done a cycle) but all you need is a pinch of subcutaneous fat/skin. Injections should be painless (avoid hair folicles). As long as there is no air in the injecting system and you wait around 5-6 seconds before withdrawing the needle after injection, there should be no problems.



LAWNSAVER - in response to your article, i would like to raise a number of important points which i would be grateful if you could respond to if i am in any way inaccurate.

One question i must ask is what is your reason for stating that a carb dose is not sufficient to illicit natural insulin rise? Is it because it would occur too slowly? I am confused as to why you think exogenous insulin will 'hold' more carbohydrate and why using carbs for such an insulin spike will cause more fat gains? this is my take on the situation, comments welcomed......

- i see insulin not as a bus, but rather as a key which 'opens' cells to carbohydrate. To say that the hormone actively carries the sugar i think is misleading. Insulin acts on cell surface receptors facilitating glucose uptake. It does this by signalling the intracellular expression of Glut4 receptors which migrate to the cell surface and uptake glucose molecules. raised heart rate and activity levels also signal Glut4 receptor expression in the abscence of insulin which is why insulin sensitivity is greater during exercise (i.e. i need less insulin per gram of carbohydrate while exercising).

- i cannot understand why exogenous insulin will lead to a greater glycogen supercompensation. this is because i don't believe any man made exogenous insulin is any quicker than endogenous but im am very vague on this matter and may not be accurate.

- how much to use and its effect will vary from individual to individual because everyone is insulin 'resistant' to a certain degree. Type II diabetics (that caused by obesity) are typical examples of extreme insulin resistance caused by excessive peaking and troughing of blood insulin levels (caused by excessive sugar consumption) - this is rather than the sugar rises causing the diabetes directly. Obviously for healthy individuals, there are no easy ways of determining your resistance/sensitivity because your endogenous insulin will make up for any shortfall in exogenous insulin with regard to controlling your blood sugar. This fact also dispells the first myth illustrated by LAWNSAVER. x I.U.'s of insulin are required for y amount of carbs is not set in stone. its different for everybody and the amount of activity they have performed etc.

- however, the statement that you can go lower with carbs than expected is true to a certain extent but not completely. LAWNSAVER, your experiments are fundamentally flawed since you have endogenous insulin production. This means that you can never have too many carbs since any excess will be mopped up by your natural insulin production. Going lower in carbs will just be bringing you nearer the threshold between whether your body needs to produce its own insulin and not. Carb amounts below the threshold for the amount of insulin you have administered yourself exogenously, will cause low blood sugar, remedied only by more carbs (simple) or your body producing glucagon (the opposite of insulin) which liberates stored glycogen and converts it to glucose to replenish your low blood sugar. the latter occurs very slowly however and when using fast acting insulin as you recommend, the only answer is more carbs hence you can only go so low with your carb intake, which in turn is determined by your insulin dose. i.e. a finite insulin dose does require a MINIMUM carbohydrate intake.

- "POTENTIAL PROBLEMS" - i have a number of issues with the statements made in this section. Firstly, yes, your body stores glycogen in muscle cells and the central storage system of the liver, both types of store have to be restocked. HOWEVER, insulin, while restocking your muscle cells utilising sugar in your blood from a digested carb meal, WILL NOT TAP THE LIVER FOR GLYCOGEN NOR DOES IT TAKE GLYCOGEN FROM THE BRAIN in the abscence of sufficient blood sugar. So to undereat carbs with the expectation that you will just pull it from your liver for supercompensation is bogus and will result in hypoglaecemia. Liver glycogen is only tapped by the opposite of insulin, 'glucagon'. As i have mentioned before, this hormonal response to dangerously low blood sugar is slower than the action of insulin which will result in a net decrease in blood sugar. Your brain does use carbohydrate as its fuel source, but it has no reserves i.e. it does not store it, which is why blood sugar must be maintained above a certain threshold, again, why you cannot undereat carbs on insulin.

- secondly, when you feel ill (hypo) you ARE very much in danger IF you do not eat sufficient sugar. Sugar will alleviate symptoms, again, better to over eat than undereat in this situation. The extent of danger when feeling low will be determined by how much insulin you've had and how quick it acts. Never underestimate the need for quick sugar intake.


2. A set volume/concentration of insulin will require a SET amount of carbohydrate. This varies between individuals, and even varies for individuals based on different factors. Any more than this amount and you will trigger natural insulin release, any less and your blood sugar will begin to drop, too little and you will go hypo.

3. low blood sugar will not induce a glycogen partitioning effect from the liver to muscle cells via insulin. Long term, glucagon can release stored glycogen in any store, however this natural response is insufficient when dealing with quick acting insulin. The only remedy is CONSUME SUGAR.

4. insulin increases fat storage. No matter what anyone says, insulin is anabolic in all senses, it opens all storage cells. The relative extents to which it does this depends on the individual.



You see based on the above it is very difficult to see what a normal non-diabetic person injecting insulin stands to gain. I for one cannot see how exogenous administration leads to greater supercompensation because you are simply mimicking the effect the food would make on your pancreatic expression of the hormone.

so i issue a challenge to anyone to come up with a reason with sufficient scientific explanation why insulin injection is superior to a well balanced post workout meal. I have some ideas as to why it may be of some use, but they are pale in comparison to the benefits to be gained from using your money on much more effective anabolic agents, and the potential risks individuals take when cycling insulin.

Regards.

 

[nickk23]

I forgot to mention, fat can be stored in fat cells in the absence of insulin, another reason why its total calories/carbs, not fat with your post meal workout that determines fat gain.

 

[nickk23]

And just before I get flamed, my post was the perspective from my scientific viewpoint. I understand people have indeed made gains from using insulin, however my post was to provoke a response in order that I may be enlightened as to the scientific reasons why people have their successes.

Thanks.

 

[2pumped4u]

Good info and questions Nick23.

 

[nickk23]

Glad somebody finally saw this and has joined the discussion. Was thinking i may create a new thread cos since this is a sticky, may people are missing it.

Anyway, in response to your post:

GH gut: i think its highly unlikely that insulin would cause this since insulin, unlike GH, does not influence the swelling/growth of organs. Of course it can cause cell volumisation but only to the limit of the cells capacity.

IGF1: now my knowledge here is shaky so please correct me if im wrong. I was not aware and don't think that insulin is responsible for the training induced increase in "insulin-like growth factor 1". Im sure even on ketogenic diets, IGF1 is still expressed. Like i say, im not too sure bout this.

GLUT AND GLUT4: are you saying GLUT is the receptor expressed in the abscence of insulin? is GLUT4 solely expression regulated solely by insulin? i was not aware of this technicality.

With regards to glycogen replenishment post workout, even if GLUT was a more efficient key to the cell for carbs, insulin would enhance this further, and the fact that you illustrate that there are 2 different receptors, then i think that insulin will have an even more profound effect on the cells uptake of glucose post workout even if GLUT is more efficient than GLUT4. More is better right?

However, this still doesn't give any evidence as to why endogenous insulin is any more inferior to insulin injections.

INSULIN:CARBS - im not sure if 10g per I.U. (insulin units) is necessarily accurate. it varies between individuals and within the individual depending on activity/diet etc. Now I know that my insulin resistance is highest first thing in the morning, I need 10 I.U. for approx 50g carbs. Im guessing this is because my body is catabolic after sleep and glucagon/cortisol is high. At lunch, I need 4 I.U. for about 40g carbs. You can see how my sensitivity to insulin has changed. Now during my workout, if i take insulin 1/2 hour before i workout, i need 80g carbs for only 4 I.U.. Much higher sensitivity. Post workout, an immediate injection of 6 I.U. is enough for a further 80g (so my sensitivity increase is carried forward into the evening.

This suggests to me that 10 I.U. as recommended by LAWNSAVER, and also a lower than optimal carb intake, will only serve to either raise the catabolic hormone glucagon (glycogen --> glucose) to maintain bloodsugar thus totally negating the effect of insulin, or your blood sugar will crash (hypo) meaning you will need sugar quickly to prevent coma.

The natural daily endogenous secretion of insulin in healthy adults will vary according to the amount of carbs eaten throughout the day. No carbs = vastly reduced insulin secretion, not only because you are not eating the carbs but also becuase your cells wil be much more insulin sensitive due to glycogen depletion.

So im still searching for a reason why insulin injections will benefit the healthy (non-diabetic) bodybuilder.

 

[2pumped4u]

Nick, you are right,
Here are some studies that may help--you decide.....

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conte...IRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1

Here is the intro:
FATIGUE DURING PROLONGED EXERCISE is often associated with muscle glycogen depletion (2, 15); therefore, high preexercise muscle glycogen concentrations are believed to be essential for optimal performance (5, 9, 17). Because endurance athletes often train twice daily for several days and may compete on consecutive days, rapid restoration of muscle glycogen is of crucial importance to optimize recovery.

The complete restoration of muscle glycogen after prolonged exercise can occur within 24 h, depending on the degree of glycogen depletion and provided that sufficient carbohydrates (CHO) are ingested (23, 24). It has been suggested that muscle glycogen synthesis after glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases (31). Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts ~30-60 min. This early postexercise recovery period is marked by an exercise-induced permeability of the muscle cell membrane to glucose (18). GLUT-4 translocation occurs during exercise, and the increase in the density of GLUT-4 transporters in the muscle membrane seems to persist for some time after exercise (27, 36). Together with the continued activation of glycogen synthase (46), this seems to lead to the initial rapid period of insulin-independent synthesis of muscle glycogen. The second phase is dependent on insulin, and glycogen synthesis occurs at a rate that is 10-30% lower than in the first rapid phase (31). When a CHO supplement is consumed after exercise, blood glucose and insulin concentrations will rise, and it has been suggested that this is the mechanism by which the combined ingestion of CHO and protein can enhance glycogen synthesis (41, 47). Insulin stimulates both muscle glucose uptake and the activation of glycogen synthase (20), the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. The ability of insulin to stimulate glucose uptake and glycogen synthase activity is even more pronounced in the first hours after exercise (7, 20). Several studies have attempted to increase insulin concentrations in the postexercise recovery period to optimize the rate of muscle glycogen storage (37, 38, 41, 45, 47). Although the pancreatic insulin secretion is primarily regulated by the blood glucose concentration, certain amino acids (37, 42) and proteins (41, 47) have a synergistic effect on the insulin release when administered in combination with a CHO load (38, 39, 41, 47). Zawadzki et al. (47) observed that the addition of whey protein to a CHO supplement resulted in an enhanced rate of glycogen storage during a 4-h recovery period (47). The authors attributed this effect to a larger insulin response caused by the ingestion of whey protein. Recently, van Loon et al. (40, 42) investigated which type, combination, and quantity of free amino acids or protein sources would maximize the insulin response when coingested with CHO. It was shown that a mixture of wheat protein hydrolysate, free leucine, and free phenylalanine, when added to a CHO drink (0.8 g CHO · kg1 · h1), resulted in higher insulin concentrations and an increased glycogen synthesis rates compared with a CHO-only drink. In this study (41), drinks were ingested at regular intervals (30 min), in contrast to the study of Zawadzki et al. (47), in which drinks were given as two large boluses (120-min intervals).

van Loon et al. (41) showed that, when the rate of CHO intake was increased to 1.2 g · kg1 · h1, this also resulted in significantly higher muscle glycogen synthesis rates compared with the ingestion of 0.8 g · kg1 · h1. These findings suggest that maximal glycogen synthesis rates were not reached when 0.8 g CHO · kg1 · h1 was ingested.

It is not known whether the addition of a protein-amino acid mixture to a larger amount of CHO would further increase glycogen synthesis after exercise. Therefore, the purpose of the present study was to investigate whether coingestion of an insulinotropic amino acid mixture and a high rate of CHO intake (1.2 g · kg1 · h1) provided at 30-min intervals would increase the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in the postexercise recovery period compared with a high-CHO intake only.



other studies:
Lund, S, Holman GD, Schmitz O, and Pedersen O. Contraction stimulates translocation of glucose transporter GLUT-4 in skeletal muscle through a mechanism distinct from that of insulin. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 92: 5817-5821, 1995[Abstract/Free Full Text].

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/c...98e1fdf27c396dbdec07136a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Here is an excerpt:
Phosphorylation of Akt, a putative signaling intermediary for GLUT-4 translocation, was increased in response to insulin (640% above rest), exercise (280%), and exercise plus insulin (1,000%). These data demonstrate that two normal physiological conditions, moderate intensity exercise and physiological hyperinsulinemia ~56 µU/ml, cause GLUT-4 translocation and Akt phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.


Another:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/c...ored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance

Excerpt:
These studies demonstrate that glucose uptake and GLUT-4 are regulated by insulin-independent means, namely the oxidative capacity of the muscle and the normal activity level of the muscle.


glucose ox. study:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conte...IRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1

These results demonstrate that when a mixture of glucose and sucrose is ingested at high rates (1.8 g/min) during cycling exercise, exogenous CHO oxidation rates reach peak values of ~1.25 g/min.

These studies are all too good, here is the link http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/s...jens+glucose&pubdate_year=&volume=&firstpage=

 

[nickk23]

Yeah I agree, we need some Insulin experts on here to tell me where Im going wrong. They were some very interesting articles there, thanks a lot. Definately helping to clear the haze. The only thing is, why do non-diabetics need to inject insulin to have these effects? Surely they can just eat enough carbs for the required insulin secretion (say along with whey protein). SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION!!

 

[2pumped4u]

I deleted my original post, incorrect info.

 

[nickk23]

Sorry, been out the game for a bit.

What you say above is in fact the complete opposite of what actually occurs. Insulin sensitivity is the measure of the sensitivity of the muscle cells to insulin, not the bodies ability to produce it.

An extreme case of insulin resistance is in Type II diabetes (non-insulin dependent). They are non-insulin dependent becuase they produce their own insulin. Instead, they need to take drugs like metformin which renders the muscle cells more insulin sensitive.

Therefore, are highly sensitive individual to insulin requires a trace of insulin when compared to that of an insulin resistant person. This is why insulin sensitivity is so desirable, because you can gain the same anabolic effect from carbohydrates with less insulin which means less activation of fat cell receptors and the consequential fat accumulation.

Insulin makes you fat cos too much will open more fat cells as well as muscle cells. The more sensitive to insulin you are, the less is required for the smae glycogen stroage thus less fat is stored per gram of glycogen stored.

By the way, found any experts yet?

 

[LANCEA9847]

im scared shit of that stuff....my cuz was a diabetic he died @ the young age of 33.........r.i.p john a.............i miss you!

 

[nickk23]

Okay, i was able to get a little more info on why bodybuilders benefit from insulin however, its implications mean that diabetics can also make use of this property. Having consulted my diabetic physician, i got the following info, however, even he was still unsure and this is all he could give me.

Basically, the exogenous administration of insulin is better than the bodies own supply because exogenous insulins control of blood sugar is a lot less tight.

When a non-diabetic eats sugar, there is a highly controlled and short burst of insulin into the the blood supply. In non-diabetics therefore, insulin release is very tightly controlled and occurs on very much a 'quick-peak and trough' basis. This is obviously why it is bad to only consume simple carbs cos youd be gettin highs and lows all the time when you want a more steady release complex carb. The insulin spike however is welcomed following exercise.

Exogenous insulin follows a much smoother curve of action. Even the quickest acting insulin has a much more steady rise and fall when compared to natural insulin secretion. The implication therefore is that a non-diabetic can achieve the same anabolic rise by drinking simple carbs and this 'spike' does not decline due to the administration of exogenous insulin which takes longer to dissapate. As a consequence, ones own insulin producing mechanisms will be shut down by negative feedback from the high levels of insulin in the blood.

So in conclusion, the benefit to bodybuilders is that they get a much more prolonged steady anabolic effect than they would normally by drinking sugar solution. However, this is not exclusive to non-diabetics, and provided diabetics manage their insulin correctly, they can also take advantage of this prolonged anabolic effect.

My one uncertainty is that of fat storage. Yes insulin is anabolic meaning it will open fat stores as well as muscle stores to a certain extent, but im not necessarily sure that eating fat will exclusively push that fat into fat cells anymore than would happen in the abscence of insulin (due to the fact that fat does not need insulin to partition into storage - insulin is fundamentaly a hormone for glucose partitioning)

 

[resident_fool]

First of all, this is a great post, I have learned a lot from it, thanks to all the contributers. My question is regarding pre and post workout use of insulin(Humalog). If you were to inject 4 I.U. of humalog 15 min. prior to training, then consume a 80-100gram carb drink, with say 20 grams of whey, possibly creatine and glut as well, would it also be beneficial to take another 4 I.U. of insulin after training, followed by a regular post workout shake of somewhere around 50grams carbs, 50 grams whey, creatine and glut? Or would the glycogen stores already be filled up from the carbs ingested during the workout? I would imagine that if the workout burned off more calories than ingested, one would be allright, but not sure...any thoughts? Also, would it make a difference if the workout was cardio or weights? Sometimes I do 45 mins of high intensity interval cardio, followed by 45 mins. of weights. Thanks bros.

 

[detroitdiesel]

man i have been wanting to know about this also great post and replies. i love those crab drinks. i'm a little slow it took me a second to realize it was a typo