Questions About Fat Gain While Bulking

[Brain and Brawn]

So I was wondering, once I have reached a low enough level of body fat and finally decided to bulk up as it were, what can I expect in terms of fat gain? I don't know for sure of course, but I tend to believe that the number of fat cells I have in my body are higher than the "average" adult male, as I have been severely overweight. By the time I was 11, I had the blood pressure of a 45 year old smoker and weighed somewhere in the range of 180+ lbs. Things didn't get much better, although I did drastically improve my blood pressure for those of you worrying. I was 345 lbs (6'5") at my heaviest and changed that 4 years ago by dropping 110 lbs. Due to such poor conditions, I believe now my body has produced more fat cells than I may initially have had through lipogenesis (I think that's the term anyways).

Regardless, I am well on my way to achieving an acceptable body fat level that I feel will make me ready to begin a mass gaining program as opposed to weight loss. My question is though, will my body have a natural pre-dispossession of wanting to fill those shrunken fat cells, especially since I have more of them? I know fat gain is inevitable, even on a slow, clean bulking program, but what can I do to help mitigate fat gains? Can/will steroids help me so far as nutrient partitioning and building lean mass instead of just refilling my fat cells?

 

[Methodology]

Being 235 and 6"5', your still pretty big, without an accurate %, there's no real way for sure to tell if your getting lean or not, I'm bordering 200 @ 6"4' and I still look pretty scrawny. When I was 4% BF, my trainer told me that I could literally eat McDonald's everyday to pack in the extra calories/protein, without having to worry about the additional weight gain, if you drop your BF down to a reasonably low level you don't even have to have a clean diet to gain some serious size (recommend having a clean diet).

Now I take it your in quite great shape, your like the exact opposite of me in terms of size, I can't keep the weight on; if your worried about putting on excess weight while you bulk, you can run clen 2 weeks, on 2 weeks off, doesn't even have to be a steroid, you can take a herbal weight loss supplement, and drop 20lbs in 2 months if you really wanted to, running thermogenics is a great way to kill fat while you gain Six Pack - The 24 HR Fat Burning Program. If you ran test e on cycle, with clen 2 on 2 off, or maybe even Winstrol (winny) or primo, you could put on a nice chunk of weight without having to worry about packing too much water weight or fat on.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

Judging from caliper readings, as well as measurements used to calculate BF%, I'm somewhere between 17-20%, but I'm dropping weight slowly every week. My goal is to begin to bulk by September. It's really good to be able to talk to someone with a similar body structure, even though you're more of an ecto and I'm more endo. What weight were you at at 4%? Was that the 200 lbs

As far as weight loss is concerned, I will be trying an ECA stack here shortly, before diving into clen. Although, I may just do some more research on clen and decide from there. And yes, when I do decide to bulk in the fall, it will be with the assistance of test, or at least that's the plan. It will be my first cycle, and even after that though, I don't think I'd ever really want to try Winstrol (winny). Primo I'd be ok with, but its rather expensive for what you get out of it. I was debating on the addition of tren or mast for fat midigation, but will most likely wait until my second cycle for that.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

Oh, I should also mention, I'm hypothyroid and take synthroid at 225mcg/daily, if that's any concern for interaction between clen or what have you. Lately though, it feels like my thyroid is acting a little "funny" (painful) lately. But that's a topic for another discussion and my doctor too lol

 

[Methodology]

In regards to thyroids, I'm have no experience with that, sorry. You might want to hold off on tren for a while though, from what I hear its like the creme of the crop when it comes to steroids, and is extremely hard on your body, I would even be willing to give it a shot for my second cycle, but most guys wait till they are good and ready. Go for the ECA stack then honestly, herbal is always good, I'm starting anavar in a few weeks to solidify myself before my post cycle therapy (pct), it can be a little pricy, especially at a hundred bones for two weeks worth, but its incredibly mild, I'm looking forward to see if I can have a 6-8 pack again.

When I was 4% BF I was actually 150lbs, and that just over a year ago. View attachment 550731.

I ran Helladrol in September 2012 for a 10 week complete cycle, and walked out at 175lbs, I was a little beefy, and my bf climbed a fair bit, but I have been unable to drop that weight. I started my current cycle 7 weeks ago, 4 weeks of dbol, 600mg/week of Test E, and 6 weeks of Anavar @80mg ED, when I started I was at around 12% BF 178lbs, currently about 194lbs, 8-10% BF.

We are in the same boat, I wanna get big without getting fat, but I have a gift for losing weight, also having an extremely high metabolism helps as well. I swear an ecto morph can become an endo morph, and vice versa, all it takes is the right diet, training, and a little herbal/chemical help.

Oh yeah, and when I started training, I was about 120lbs, and that was about 4 years ago.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

Oh wow, you started from a much smaller frame than myself. Still, it sounds like you`ve made great progress! I`ve used ECA before and found that, while I tolerate it quite well, (I tolerate stimulants in general pretty well), it did however drasticly lower my aerobic capacity I found. Maybe I was just being paranoid, but it felt like I was winded and my heart raced when I added the ephedrine as compared to the regular caffeine I take. It wasn`t that bad though that I wouldn`t try it again. I could just be sensitive to ephedrin (ephedra? I forget what it was exactly, my friend gave it to me, and it was marketed as and he used it as a bronchiolar dilator).

I've been researching the difference between clenbuterol and albuterol. Do you have any experience with either, or a recommendation either way? I feel like I'd like to give either one a try this summer. Still doing research on them though, I tend to research things 10x over, just to be safe and sure. It's always good to hear about what others experiences were with things though as opposed to just peer review scientific journals or the general forums lol. I mean, I've been researching testosterone and its derivatives for about 5 years now! And I'm only just seriously considering my first cycle this fall when I head back to school.

How old were you when you first started? Just curious. I'll be 25 by the time I'm ready

 

[Methodology]

Oh wow, you started from a much smaller frame than myself. Still, it sounds like you`ve made great progress! I`ve used ECA before and found that, while I tolerate it quite well, (I tolerate stimulants in general pretty well), it did however drasticly lower my aerobic capacity I found. Maybe I was just being paranoid, but it felt like I was winded and my heart raced when I added the ephedrine as compared to the regular caffeine I take. It wasn`t that bad though that I wouldn`t try it again. I could just be sensitive to ephedrin (ephedra? I forget what it was exactly, my friend gave it to me, and it was marketed as and he used it as a bronchiolar dilator).

I've been researching the difference between clenbuterol and albuterol. Do you have any experience with either, or a recommendation either way? I feel like I'd like to give either one a try this summer. Still doing research on them though, I tend to research things 10x over, just to be safe and sure. It's always good to hear about what others experiences were with things though as opposed to just peer review scientific journals or the general forums lol. I mean, I've been researching testosterone and its derivatives for about 5 years now! And I'm only just seriously considering my first cycle this fall when I head back to school.

How old were you when you first started? Just curious. I'll be 25 by the time I'm ready

I started seriously training when I was 23/24, I went from working out maybe twice a week on literally no plan to doing a 16 workout strength circuit set 6 days/week, after 3 months I had shredded all the fat off my body and was just building clean muscle. Only 27 now, turn 28 in a few months.

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience from albuterol or clen, albuterol is more of a prohormone it can be bad for you to take for extended amounts of time, I guess clen can be just as bad, but running 2 weeks on 2 weeks off has worked for a lot of people. Dosing for clen would be like:

Day 1 - 20mcg (spread out during the day 2-3 times)
Day 2 - 30mcg
Day 3 - 40mcg
Day 4 - 50mcg
Day 5 - 60mcg
Day 6 - 70mcg
Day 7 - 80mcg
Day 8 - 90mcg
Day 9 - 100mcg
Day 10 - 90mcg
Day 11 - 80mcg
Day 12 - 70mcg
Day 13 - 60mcg
Day 14 - 50mcg

Since you're more reactive to stimulants its best to just take it until the sides are intolerable, once you really start to notice it, that will be your max dose, this is just a dose guideline, some people go up to their max and stay there until the 2 weeks are done, others climb and taper off. Since your taking 2 weeks off in between, you can cycle clen for a lot longer than most orals, but even still you need to keep in mind that they are hard on your body never the less. I plan on running it with some human grades within my next few cycles.

You have a good outlook, most people just jump into heavy cycles without any prior knowledge of what effect it will have on your body, I was here indulging for a year before I jumped into my current cycle. In your case, you should take more omega fatty acids in, they are really good for your cardiovascular health, and can help offside your stimulant threshold.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

Congratulations on getting shredded so quickly! I've been working on this for a little over 3 years now, with intermediate periods where I was unable to train due to travelling. I've since been training seriously for the past year where I started on the p90x program, progressed to starting strength, and have now moved to Layne Norton's PHAT program, all with fairly great results.

After some minor research, I found this here on the difference betwene clen and albut:

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/114581-new-albuterol-ketotifen-lion.html

It seems that albuterol is the drug of choice, yet is still fairly underused, even today. I'd imagine this is partly because some people (the general populous who won't/cant be bothered to do any research) just see the words "more catabolic" and think to themselves "That's the drug for me, more fat loss is all I want", without ever considering the side effects and secondary benefits, such as the muscle sparing effects etc etc etc (or perhaps popularity as well).

I was curious, what article or research did you happen to come across that said/mentioned the similarities between albut and prohormones? I'm of course going to research this as well, but so far I've yet to be able to find a comparison or reference such as that. I'm knowledgeable enough to stay away from prohormones, as I like my liver just the way it is lol, and really, test (and its derivitives such as mast, deca, eq, etc) is just so much better/easier to manage than prohormones. As far as clen is concerned, I'd be worried about the npossibility of necrosis of the heart tissue that can occur

"Originaly posted by nandi on CM board.

It's been known for some time that clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much Clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells Clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.


J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively."

And yea, although like I said I am usually really unresponsive to stimulants, ephed really did me in. I do take omega-3 fatty acids as well, around 5-6g a day, but even that didn't help. I really appreciate this feedback by the way! And totally jealous of your access to Human Grade gear It's been hard enough just finding a reputable UG lab, let alone superior chemicals like that!!

 

[Methodology]

I just saw it at my lab, derp on my part, it only converts fat into fuel, but it doesn't utilize it, which means you have to burn it off yourself.

"Albuterol, like its closely related chemical cousin clenbuterol. Like clenbuterol, albuterol binds to the beta 2 adrenergic receptors found on cells throughout the body. The beta 2 receptors on fat cells activate an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase. This breaks up stored fat into free fatty acids that are able to then leave the fat cell and serve as a fuel source in other tissues. The primary target of these fatty acids is working muscle. This is the familiar process we know as lipolysis. Albuterol, like clenbuterol, is a potent lipolytic agent. But simply freeing up fat is not enough. Unless the body can burn the extra FFA they will simply be reincorporated into fat. Albuterol has the ability to elevate metabolic rate so these FFA can be utilized for fuel................................ Numerous animal studies have shown that albuterol increases both muscle size and strength. As an added benefit, albuterol lowers LDL and total cholesterol, while at the same time elevating HDL, the "good cholesterol"

I would love to run a human grade cycle, its just reasonably expensive to do so, the difference in price is almost five fold for some things.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

Yeah, that why I was going to run it with Ketotifen on a ketogenic diet. Figured if I could free up those fatty acids, and be in a state of ketosis, then I'd be primed for fat loss. Plus, being in a state of ketosis will help with muscle retention while dieting, as will the albuterol.

I'm sorry if this is breaking any of the rules as far as asking for a source for ancillaries such as these, but do you or any others know of any? I'll immediately edit/delete this last part if it is breaking the rules. (Just to be clear, that only for Albuterol and Ketotifen)

And yea, I have no idea what human grade goes for, but I can imagine that it's crazy expensive. I'd wonder about its worth over regular underground labs, as far as heavy metals might be concerned, sterility, and concentration/dosage strength.

 

[prisonsex]

Bro. I hate to burst your bubble....this picture ain't 4%.

OP, you state that you are between 15-20% as indicated by body calipers. You need to use your diet to reduce your body fat. Using compounds to cut down is a good idea at sub 10% BF. trying to use compounds to cut in the 15-20% range is vertually ineffective. Get your diet right; unless your plan is to stay on clen until you die.

In regards to thyroids, I'm have no experience with that, sorry. You might want to hold off on tren for a while though, from what I hear its like the creme of the crop when it comes to steroids, and is extremely hard on your body, I would even be willing to give it a shot for my second cycle, but most guys wait till they are good and ready. Go for the ECA stack then honestly, herbal is always good, I'm starting anavar in a few weeks to solidify myself before my PCT, it can be a little pricy, especially at a hundred bones for two weeks worth, but its incredibly mild, I'm looking forward to see if I can have a 6-8 pack again.

When I was 4% BF I was actually 150lbs, and that just over a year ago. View attachment 550731.

I ran Helladrol in September 2012 for a 10 week complete cycle, and walked out at 175lbs, I was a little beefy, and my bf climbed a fair bit, but I have been unable to drop that weight. I started my current cycle 7 weeks ago, 4 weeks of dbol, 600mg/week of Test E, and 6 weeks of Anavar @80mg ED, when I started I was at around 12% BF 178lbs, currently about 194lbs, 8-10% BF.

We are in the same boat, I wanna get big without getting fat, but I have a gift for losing weight, also having an extremely high metabolism helps as well. I swear an ecto morph can become an endo morph, and vice versa, all it takes is the right diet, training, and a little herbal/chemical help.

Oh yeah, and when I started training, I was about 120lbs, and that was about 4 years ago.

 

[Brain and Brawn]

I definitely don't plan on staying on Albuterol until I die (not clen), and i do realize that it'd be better to cut down to 10% naturally before hand, but I have two problems.

1) I have made steady process up until the 235 lbs mark, and not just this one time either. It's happened before, and I've tried almost everything under the sun to break through the plateau. I've increased the work I did, decreased the work i did, increased my calories, decreased my calories, eliminated all processed food (it was an already very clean diet, so my this i mean pasta, rice, etc), cycling my carbs, etc etc etc. The only thing left that I can think of doing is trying a ketogenic diet, and at this point, I feel like I'm ready to at least start trying different chems. There comes a point where you just need to experiment (smartly of course).

and 2) I'm not entirely sure where I stand as far as BF% goes. Having been obese the majority of my life, I have a tad more excess skin than the average post weight gain individual. Compounded to this, when I lost the majority of my weight, I did so VERY quickly, and as a result didn't do myself any favors as far as loose skin goes.

I'm not disregarding what you've said at all. In fact, I just hope that I can continue a conversation about this and what I might be able to do to help me achieve a desirable BF% so that I can start cycling in the fall. Do you happen to have any scientific research regarding the use of stimulants such as clen or albuterol that shoes it's effects are negligible until down to a lower BF%? I'm only asking out of curiosity and not trying to call you our friend

 

[prisonsex]

Lmao! Okay, I'll copy and paste a buch of bullshit for you. No man, I got real experiance...the shit trumps all you keyboard warriors copy and paste garbage. If you think that you little stratigy really worked dont you think Phiser, Merk and all the other drug company would blend your little secret formula and market it to every fat ass on the planet? Think about it. They are finishing compounds...not lap band or stomach staples. Man up and get your diet right, quite come up with excuses why you are somehow different from every other fat ass.

I definitely don't plan on staying on Albuterol until I die (not clen), and i do realize that it'd be better to cut down to 10% naturally before hand, but I have two problems.

1) I have made steady process up until the 235 lbs mark, and not just this one time either. It's happened before, and I've tried almost everything under the sun to break through the plateau. I've increased the work I did, decreased the work i did, increased my calories, decreased my calories, eliminated all processed food (it was an already very clean diet, so my this i mean pasta, rice, etc), cycling my carbs, etc etc etc. The only thing left that I can think of doing is trying a ketogenic diet, and at this point, I feel like I'm ready to at least start trying different chems. There comes a point where you just need to experiment (smartly of course).

and 2) I'm not entirely sure where I stand as far as BF% goes. Having been obese the majority of my life, I have a tad more excess skin than the average post weight gain individual. Compounded to this, when I lost the majority of my weight, I did so VERY quickly, and as a result didn't do myself any favors as far as loose skin goes.

I'm not disregarding what you've said at all. In fact, I just hope that I can continue a conversation about this and what I might be able to do to help me achieve a desirable BF% so that I can start cycling in the fall. Do you happen to have any scientific research regarding the use of stimulants such as clen or albuterol that shoes it's effects are negligible until down to a lower BF%? I'm only asking out of curiosity and not trying to call you our friend

 

[Brain and Brawn]

I'm trying to have an informative discussion "prisonsex"...not start a pissing contest. So unless you have something more informative to say or contribute with, why don't you go hijack someone else's thread...

And there are obvious reasons why a pharmaceutical company wouldn't promote the use of these illicit drugs for weight loss, and yes it very well could be that they don't work miracles. Fair enough. But It could also be that those who would normally be prescribed said compound (ie morbidly obese individuals) probably have other underlying health issues which could be compounded by the use of said compounds, not to mention other drug interactions for high blood pressure, or whatever else they may be taking...

I'm not trying to find an easy way out, on the contrary, I'm just trying to further my knowledge, and ultimately achieve some goals of mine, much like many other people on this board. And if that be by "man(ing) up and getting (my) diet right", so be it, but I understand how important a role nutrition plays, and am not only relying on some "magic compound" bullshit to help me. I eat cleanly, and sensibly, monitoring every morsel I consume. I'm simply furthering my knowledge of ways I can manipulate my diet to further said goals.