recovery from drug/alcohol abuse & depression, 1year later, low T levels, HELP!

[naiter]

age 31, 6'0", 165lbs, low body fat
no health insurance, very limited funds

Thinking of using nolvadex and clomid to attempt to jump start any natural testosterone creating abilities I might have. I'm open to suggestions, but will avoid full blown TRT.

I have all the symptoms of low testosterone levels, but I haven't have blood work done (I know I should, but no income and no insurance, mooching off the wife). I suspect I've had lower than average Testosterone levels all my life - almost no facial hair, no hair loss, always skinny except belly and love handles.
When I was 20 I did a few cycles of dbol and deca, gained 25lbs of muscle which I kept for awhile, but I could not maintain through my motorcycle accidents. Didn't have any adverse side effects other than back acne. Like a true noobie, I did many things wrong, and damaged my elbows by pushing too hard, although it is hard to discern how much if any, of my current chronic joint pain/arthritis is caused from this one moment of rapid muscle gain or my many motorcycle accidents. I can repeatably gain 10lbs of muscle if I'm extremely diligent but there was always an accident or sickness that just takes it away so I stopped focusing on trying to gain weight, and just try to be satisfied with being lean.

I've got bipolar type 2. Spent 1 year on methadone(opiate), had alcoholism, and abused pot. used xanax (responsibly). add in chronic diarrhea. I've been off of all opiates for about a year, then I spent more than a few months bouncing back and forth between pot, alcohol, and xanax. Now knowing there is no magic bullet cure, and understanding my personal problems better, I decided to really focus on getting healthy a couple months ago. I started exercising and I quit consuming any caffeine, pot, alcohol, xanax, refined sugars, processed carbs, and added more fats to my diet. I'm struggling to get a healthy gut internally, but it has improved. Having a healthier diet overall along with exercise caused -guess what?- less crazy mood swings/hypo-mania! DUH. but I'm still constantly riddled with anxiety. The only fix for the anxiety is exercise. If I don't exercise I will not be able to fall asleep. It's still painful to exercise (more than just arthritis, more like when you're depressed and have whole body pain, you've gotta force yourself just to move) but its easier than before, once I get going now it is easy to keep moving. I lost 15lbs in first 3 "healthy" weeks. probably because it's tough trying to eat when everything is a no-no, but my weight seems to have stabilized for the moment.

I figure if I'm going to be exercising a lot, might as well make it worth the time. I look like I'm in descent shape, just don't feel like it.

Also, does Dymatize Z Force do anything? It's cheap but is it worth using?

Thank you in advance for your replies!

 

[oldmusclemike]

So what are you saying??? what are you jump starting. If no exogenous test you should no be shut down and it is what it is. If you don't get labs you and everyone else has no clue. There is no quick fix, I'm an addict, clean n sober almost 3 years, I'm also BI-Polar type I.

Stay clean. If great depression you need meds. I've been on Prozac since 87' it works wonders. No sides for me and Prozac is sort of an upper.

There is sliding scale mental health out there. Xanax will fvck you up, best way to stay depressed is with that shit. There are mood stabilizers that have very little sides, Lamicatal is one.

Don't take crap and seek an MD, psych doctor. I realize no insurance is a bitch. Get State and Govt help It is out there and you can get help for mental conditions if you are serious. IMOP the way your going you are looking in the wrong direction.

Oh and you talk of symptoms but no blood work...Hello So you just want to plug some shit in, sorry sounds like an addict talking.
Get o the phone and start asking for help. You can see a doctor at least once for what you want to spend on Clomid and Nolva. Something is wrong with this picture, In my experienced opinion.

 

[naiter]

Mike, You're right. Solid advise that I can't argue with, below is how i justify to myself not taking it...
I did spend quite a bit of time and effort (phone calls, state medicaid apps, clinic visits, etc) trying to get a psychologist/psychiatrist when I first stopped working over a year ago, but end result was no help and wasted time. I was trying because I thought the right med would help. Even though the ones my doc gave me didn't. The medical system is such a PITA for the amount of energy required to put into when I'm sick. It'd be easier to work and just freaking pay outright for it. I've done enough research to decide to stop trying more meds until I fail at diet and exercise.

I've been actually dig'n around for work lately so if I get a project I'll hopefully get my blood test before I do anything else. If I did find reliable work, I have no expenses anymore, and could actually pay for a shrink.

I feel like any TRT doc I'd end up seeing won't know as much as the guys on this forum, but I do understand the need of bloodwork for anyone to give proper advice.

 

[cybrsage]

I feel like any TRT doc I'd end up seeing won't know as much as the guys on this forum, but I do understand the need of bloodwork for anyone to give proper advice.

I think you are actually right with this, but a TRT doc can give you legal Testosterone so it is well worth it.

If you are not already adding test to your body and it is low, there is no way to jumpstart it - your body just is no longer making it. I look at it like Type 1 Diabetes. This diabetic does not make insulin because the body cannot make it anymore. This person needs to inject insulin to live a proper life. Same with Low T, the body simply does not make it anymore for whatever reason. You have to inject testosterone in order to live a proper life. There is no shame in having either condition.

 

[oldmusclemike]

I think you are actually right with this, but a TRT doc can give you legal Testosterone so it is well worth it.

If you are not already adding test to your body and it is low, there is no way to jumpstart it - your body just is no longer making it. I look at it like Type 1 Diabetes. This diabetic does not make insulin because the body cannot make it anymore. This person needs to inject insulin to live a proper life. Same with Low T, the body simply does not make it anymore for whatever reason. You have to inject testosterone in order to live a proper life. There is no shame in having either condition.

Here's what I say again. I disagree with gong to TRT doc. That's more $$ then simple blood work from Med labs, etc... see 3j's posts on blood work cheap. Then you have the simple and cheapest way to rule something out.

So if not then a shrink. Remember I've been dealing with BI-Polar type I all my life and big time w/doc s since 75'. If you go w/ TRT doc you pay for the doc and the labs in which you can get your own labs. You MUST get labs to make a decision . Problem is money and playing doctor on your self.

There are drugs for depression with little sides, that takes time to work out. In FLa, we have Meridian behavioral Health, sliding scale , cheap, been there for 20 + years and before my SSD for bi-polar.

I don't think this is the forum to continue this topic. So think this out. You can PM me or others on here but I think this topic can aggravate some one here as well as staff/ Admin.

WE are not doctors or psych docs. Some of your life (accident etc...) points to depression. Labs first and no \need for Doc for that YET. Good luck. ...the old guy here

 

[cybrsage]

Maybe I just have amazingly good insurance then (which I suspect Obama will ensure goes away), since a doctor's visit and blood work combined only set me back $40.

 

[Chicago712]

Maybe I just have amazingly good insurance then (which I suspect Obama will ensure goes away), since a doctor's visit and blood work combined only set me back $40.

let me guess your still on your parents insurance and have no clue how much they are paying..

 

[Chicago712]

also @OP i am also a recovering addict, but i hope you understand steroids are not the answer to your problem bro, i've relapsed back to other drugs because of side effects of steroids...

and if your too cheap to get 60$ blood work how the fuck are you gonna afford to continue using nolva and clomid

 

[cybrsage]

let me guess your still on your parents insurance and have no clue how much they are paying..

I am 45 and have had my own insurance for many decades now. Good insurance exists, you just have to work for a company that provides it.

Do you and oldmike feel as stupid you made yourselves look with your snarky, but failed, insult?

 

[oldmusclemike]

No insult, you are talking circles. You came and asked for advice. You got and don't like it. So be it, ya don't need me or Chicago712. Good luck... I gave you the best advice I Know. The end

 

[cybrsage]

oldmike, you certainly did click like on Chicago's insult towards me, stop pretending you did not, we can all see it. I also think you have problems following along in the thread as I did not come to this thread seeking advice. I simply told naitor he should keep trying to see a real doctor. Getting blood work done first is a great idea, and he already acknowledged that, there was no need for anyone to repeat it. You and Chicago appear jealous that I pay very little for good healthcare. Rather than be upset, be happy the government has not yet managed to take it away from everyone.

You seem to get riled up very quickly and for no good reason...you might want to adjust what you are taking and try to alleviate it.

 

[cybrsage]

age 31, 6'0", 165lbs, low body fat
no health insurance, very limited funds

I've got bipolar type 2. Spent 1 year on methadone(opiate), had alcoholism, and abused pot. used xanax (responsibly). add in chronic diarrhea. I've been off of all opiates for about a year, then I spent more than a few months bouncing back and forth between pot, alcohol, and xanax. Now knowing there is no magic bullet cure, and understanding my personal problems better, I decided to really focus on getting healthy a couple months ago. I started exercising and I quit consuming any caffeine, pot, alcohol, xanax, refined sugars, processed carbs, and added more fats to my diet. I'm struggling to get a healthy gut internally, but it has improved. Having a healthier diet overall along with exercise caused -guess what?- less crazy mood swings/hypo-mania! DUH. but I'm still constantly riddled with anxiety. The only fix for the anxiety is exercise. If I don't exercise I will not be able to fall asleep. It's still painful to exercise (more than just arthritis, more like when you're depressed and have whole body pain, you've gotta force yourself just to move) but its easier than before, once I get going now it is easy to keep moving. I lost 15lbs in first 3 "healthy" weeks. probably because it's tough trying to eat when everything is a no-no, but my weight seems to have stabilized for the moment.

I would also look up your local AA and NA chapters. You would be surprised how much it helps just talking to people who REALLY get it. Not just say they do, but ACTUALLY do, since they have lived your life. You will find a safe place to express your feelings - the ones you keep hidden from all others because no one actually wants to know how you feel when they ask...but the people at AA and NA do. Since you have had alcohol problems, I would start with AA, people I have talked two who are multi-addicted and went to both NA and AA say AA feels better to them...but that is an individual thing so try both. They are free - and both usually supply free coffee.

You have nothing to lose but an hour and everything to gain from it, give it a shot. Heck, they may even have resources to help you get the public assistance you need.

 

[Chicago712]

let me guess your still on your parents insurance and have no clue how much they are paying..

no insult here, i'm actually suprised you think it is uncommon for someone with insurance to pay what you said, mine is only 20$ for the same type of thing...

also @OP i am also a recovering addict, but i hope you understand steroids are not the answer to your problem bro, i've relapsed back to other drugs because of side effects of steroids...

and if your too cheap to get 60$ blood work how the fuck are you gonna afford to continue using nolva and clomid

no insult here, your bitching about expenses yet your willing to buy compounds to fix a medical problem you haven't even been diagnosed with yet....

keep comin back bro

I would also look up your local AA and NA chapters. You would be surprised how much it helps just talking to people who REALLY get it. Not just say they do, but ACTUALLY do, since they have lived your life. You will find a safe place to express your feelings - the ones you keep hidden from all others because no one actually wants to know how you feel when they ask...but the people at AA and NA do. Since you have had alcohol problems, I would start with AA, people I have talked two who are multi-addicted and went to both NA and AA say AA feels better to them...but that is an individual thing so try both. They are free - and AA at least provides free coffee.

You have nothing to lose but an hour and everything to gain from it, give it a shot. Heck, they may even have resources to help you get the public assistance you need.

I'm a member of NA, please quit trying to promote this stuff and just go read the literature and actually recover...

also NA provides free coffee two idk what your talking about, i realize at the place you are right now you may of felt what i said was an insult, but i completely empathize with you and have been exactly where your at... I'm currently on TRT due to my past abuse of drugs/AAS, i've been the homeless guy, i've been the person noone wants to fuck with... and now after about 4 years around the rooms i'm the complete opposite of that... soo give yourself a break and stick around, it works

 

[Matt0071]

age 31, 6'0", 165lbs, low body fat
no health insurance, very limited funds

Thinking of using nolvadex and clomid to attempt to jump start any natural testosterone creating abilities I might have. I'm open to suggestions, but will avoid full blown TRT.

I have all the symptoms of low testosterone levels, but I haven't have blood work done (I know I should, but no income and no insurance, mooching off the wife). I suspect I've had lower than average Testosterone levels all my life - almost no facial hair, no hair loss, always skinny except belly and love handles.
When I was 20 I did a few cycles of dbol and deca, gained 25lbs of muscle which I kept for awhile, but I could not maintain through my motorcycle accidents. Didn't have any adverse side effects other than back acne. Like a true noobie, I did many things wrong, and damaged my elbows by pushing too hard, although it is hard to discern how much if any, of my current chronic joint pain/arthritis is caused from this one moment of rapid muscle gain or my many motorcycle accidents. I can repeatably gain 10lbs of muscle if I'm extremely diligent but there was always an accident or sickness that just takes it away so I stopped focusing on trying to gain weight, and just try to be satisfied with being lean.

I've got bipolar type 2. Spent 1 year on methadone(opiate), had alcoholism, and abused pot. used xanax (responsibly). add in chronic diarrhea. I've been off of all opiates for about a year, then I spent more than a few months bouncing back and forth between pot, alcohol, and xanax. Now knowing there is no magic bullet cure, and understanding my personal problems better, I decided to really focus on getting healthy a couple months ago. I started exercising and I quit consuming any caffeine, pot, alcohol, xanax, refined sugars, processed carbs, and added more fats to my diet. I'm struggling to get a healthy gut internally, but it has improved. Having a healthier diet overall along with exercise caused -guess what?- less crazy mood swings/hypo-mania! DUH. but I'm still constantly riddled with anxiety. The only fix for the anxiety is exercise. If I don't exercise I will not be able to fall asleep. It's still painful to exercise (more than just arthritis, more like when you're depressed and have whole body pain, you've gotta force yourself just to move) but its easier than before, once I get going now it is easy to keep moving. I lost 15lbs in first 3 "healthy" weeks. probably because it's tough trying to eat when everything is a no-no, but my weight seems to have stabilized for the moment.

I figure if I'm going to be exercising a lot, might as well make it worth the time. I look like I'm in descent shape, just don't feel like it.

Also, does Dymatize Z Force do anything? It's cheap but is it worth using?

Thank you in advance for your replies!

U need to figure yourself out, recovering alkie myself, I use the gym as my addiction, I dont goto aa but yes been there, detox, rehab, jail, u know the stories man, goodluck on your recovery man, when your ready u will know it

 

[cybrsage]

no insult here, i'm actually suprised you think it is uncommon for someone with insurance to pay what you said, mine is only 20$ for the same type of thing...

OK, I will take your word for it that you never use phrases about people still using their parents insurance, living with them, etc., and such as insults or in a condescending way. For future use, that is how most people use and perceive those statements.

no insult here, your bitching about expenses yet your willing to buy compounds to fix a medical problem you haven't even been diagnosed with yet....

keep comin back bro

You, like oldmike, are confusing me with the OP.

I'm a member of NA, please quit trying to promote this stuff and just go read the literature and actually recover...

also NA provides free coffee two idk what your talking about..

Yeah, I can see how you would think I meant NA does not provide coffee. I have never been to one, so I would not know. What I meant is that I know AA provides free coffee. I will edit the post to make it clearer. I personally think both are great things and that people should go to whichever the prefer - but you have to be an Alcoholic to go to AA and since the OP is both an alcoholic and drug user, he has the choice to go to one, the other, or both. Like I said, "...but that is an individual thing so try both. They are free..."


I think we got off on the wrong foot. I simply offered my experience, strength, and hope to the OP. Each person's experiences will be different, so what is offered will be different.

 

[oldmusclemike]

No insult, you are talking circles. You came and asked for advice. You got and don't like it. So be it, ya don't need me or Chicago712. Good luck... I gave you the best advice I Know. The end

Sorry, you are correct in that I confused you with OP. My mistake, I gave advice to the wrong individual however my advice is solid for anyone who is in his position.

OK, I will take your word for it that you never use phrases about people still using their parents insurance, living with them, etc., and such as insults or in a condescending way. For future use, that is how most people use and perceive those statements.

You, like oldmike, are confusing me with the OP.

Yeah, I can see how you would think I meant NA does not provide coffee. I have never been to one, so I would not know. What I meant is that I know AA provides free coffee. I will edit the post to make it clearer. I personally think both are great things and that people should go to whichever the prefer - but you have to be an Alcoholic to go to AA and since the OP is both an alcoholic and drug user, he has the choice to go to one, the other, or both. Like I said, "...but that is an individual thing so try both. They are free..."

I think we got off on the wrong foot. I simply offered my experience, strength, and hope to the OP. Each person's experiences will be different, so what is offered will be different.

We now are infringing on OP's thread and a simple comment as to we are confusing you for OP would have sufficed. I have disagreements with some of your statements however we should leave it here in respect to OP and the thread. I will receive a PM with good indentions if you so desire, but I think it is a moot point now and does not warrant any more discussion. Thank you.

OP, I apologize for this rude hijack of your Q's and intent with this thread. oldmusclemike

 

[Jack Tors]

opiates interfere with the endocrine system. its going to take some time. run a full pct if you want because it wont hurt either way. HCG, Clomid...hows the libido? probably awful? Cialis is your friend.

don't make this your next addiction. deal with the mental issues 1st'

you sure your off the opiates?

 

[juced_porkchop]

You need blood work, period... THAT is the first step...

 

[naiter]

Holy thread explosion batman!

I'm and addict and a cheater so I self prescribe. That's not going to change until a doc actually helps me permanently, which hasn't happened.
I know, I know...

I bought some already. It was under $60 after shipping for pills: 90x 20mg tamoxifen and 90x 50mg clomiphene citrate. It costs me $85 to see my MD and he just throws a random script at me every time, that I usually can't afford anyways. or the clinic is $20 but they try to not script and have very little on-site resources. I'm going to try and scrape up some change to get blood work done before I start on any of these. I will search for 3j's bloodwork info and dig around online to see where/how I should ship/draw blood sample. (a PM of any links would be appreciated) I guess gotta get at least a blood sample before I put this stuff in my body.
I know I need to watch my eye pressure (clomid) and liver (nolva). anything else?
I'm guessing tapering on and off but still don't have dosages/dosing figured out exactly.

Jack_Tors, yeah my libido is super F'd, but I had my first morning boner in years so I'm hoping I'm improving... ? lol
I've slipped 3x in the last year and used a few 30mg roxies, but I was always off it in under a week. but that sure messed with me. That was all before the diet change/exercise. I could see exercise becoming the next addiction. /sigh I'm hoping it isn't like the past because my bipolar isn't too bad, if I can keep eating healthy. Booze is the really tough one for me since its everywhere and so cheap. Pot doesn't seem to be super detrimental if I use sativa(indica depresses me) but if I have weed on-hand then I'll slip and drink because I can cure the hangover with pot. I'm hoping in the long run, waaaay long, I could smoke pot on the weekends and never touch alcohol. But I'm just setting myself up for more pain by thinking that way.

cybrsage, I realize that I need group therapy but talking about it online is easier than IRL. I'm still in the closet with my family and friends on the extent of my drug abuse. So it's embarrassing to talk to others about it, which is stupid because online is permanent and probably less anonymous in the long run. I need to man up and go, but if it is not in my small focus tunnel, it doesn't happen. The more I research Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and mental health the more likely I am to go to group. I'm slowly moving that direction and your comments do help. Coffee/caffeine is a no-no, otherwise sometimes I go manic but usually just have extreme irritability/anxiety.

Chicago712, I have a high income potential as a contractor/programmer in a tight knit small industry, if I was healthy enough to work I could afford it. I haven't burnt my all my bridges with work yet because I'm still planning on working in the same field again at some point. It's better to live on the street right now(peoples sofa's, tents, etc) then try to work a job in my industry and fail, and then not have the option of work again, except minimum wage. When I worked in the past the manic side was quite successful, but it is unsustainable/unreliable. I'm super cheap right now because I'm a bum/tramp. As a cheater I'm done going at it painfully and "straight", hence the self prescription. I'm not going to hate myself for trying to cheat with PCT drugs, cause it is better than just going back to free-methadone(not the only two options, but a possibility that does allow me to work). I get how stupid it seems to keep on self prescribing since that is partially why I'm screwed in the first place.

Hindsight. my OP should've had far less info. but I'm verbose and the more info you guys have the better advice I can get. The thread went to the mental health, whereas I was wondering if anyone knew how PCT would work alone. Using anti bitch tit/anti breast cancer medicine with fertility medicine doesn't really have a forum. When I try to search it online I find 99% PCT info/dosing. Please focus in the the treatment not the fact that I'm a little more crazy than most ;P Everyone is a crazy animal somewhere inside, it is just a matter of how much/often. I think if someone feels they really are 100% sane, they're boring and lying to theirself.
I do appreciate all of the advice regardless of if I take it. I still need to hear common sense, sometimes over and over before it sticks... Please try not to bash each-other(I see it was a mistake before anyways) no need to defend me if I get flamed, I put myself out here and appreciate productive criticism and especially helpful advice. Sometimes after wasting your time reading a long ass thread/post you just gotta flame someone. lol

If a mod closes/deletes this thread I totally understand.

 

[oldmusclemike]

Holy thread explosion batman!
I'm and addict and a cheater so I self prescribe. That's not going to change until a doc actually helps me permanently, which hasn't happened.
I know, I know...

Now that intro is funny !
The thread really when way out there. Sorry for my part but it seems you didn't mind too much. So there ya go man you gotta do what ya gotta do sometimes. Hang in there and be carful.