Refined Proposed First Cycle

[bascat]

Firstly- this is a great site with lots of helpful advice. I have scanned it thoroughly and hope that the following represents a reasonable synthesis of the information as far as a first cycle is concerned:

Age: 43
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 170
BF:9-10%
Training: 10 years

Diet: Working with nutritionist and on a very clean diet- don't drink or smoke. Quality carbs, plenty of protein, 6 meals per day and lots of sleep. I have calculated my BMR which is 1670 and my TDEE which is 2670 cals.

View attachment 536217

Training: 5 on 2 off

Goal: Add 10-15lbs of lean mass before entering first comp in Sept 2011.

Proposed Cycle:
week 1 250mg to 500mg test e or Sustanon (sust)
week 2 As above
week 3 As above
week 4 As above
week 5 As above
week 6 As above
week 7 As above
week 8 As above
week 9 As above
week 10 As above

(happy to take advice on dose and test and whether 10 or 12 weeks would work best)


If I stick with Test E (seems to be more widely available) would arimidex rather than nolva for on cycle gyno and bloat control be a better idea?. As for the clomid post cycle therapy (pct) would 5 days at 100 and then 25 days at 50 along with with support supplements such as a natural test booster, be feasible?

Not sure if 250 is enough to see results, so happy to take advice as it is my first cycle and I want to minimize possible sides. Intend splitting shots Sunday and Wed.

Do you think taking Nolva (or Arimidex- unsure which) from start of cycle is justified. I am aware that some people will only start to take Nolvadex if gyno issues occur, and begin to take it when they start post cycle therapy (pct) due to the fact that your oestrogen levels are higher than testosterone levels because the injected testosterone is wearing off. This method in theory sounds plausible, but as its my first cycle i don’t want to take the chances.

Gyno: If gyno symptoms occur while on 10-20mg of Nolvadex ED, i will up the dosage to 50mg ED and then reduce to 10-20 again (if taking for the duration of the cycle).

Injection sites. Plan to rotate from right quad to left quad, to right glute to left glute. (Considering deltoids, most likely to not use them).

Stopping before the end of the cycle: if I have to abort the cycle for any reason, I will wait 2 weeks for the T levels to drop, Then carry on to post cycle therapy (pct) procedure as normal. During this time I will take Nolvadex at my current dosage till the end of post cycle therapy (pct) every day.

Finally, I will also be taking a lipid control supp (Lipin Stabil) and a liver support supp (Liver Stabil) even though this probably isn't necessary given that I won't be including orals in the cycle.

Happy for any input on cycle, whether it should be stacked with anything and realistic expectations of increases. Thanks in advance.

 

[mason95]

Bascat, you've definitely done your homework. Good start, understanding how this stuff works is critical imo.

would arimidex rather than nolva for on cycle gyno and bloat control be a better idea?

I use Arimidex(Liquidex from RUI), some people like Aromasin but I've never tried it. Both imo are better then Nolva because they are Aromatase Inhibitors meaning they block the formation of Estrogen to begin with. Nolva just blocks the receptor.

Do you think taking Nolva (or Arimidex- unsure which) from start of cycle is justified

I use AI's from the start but you may want to wait until you first start to get some bloat or other symptom to begin your Aromatase inhibitor (AI). This way you can accurately dial in the correct dose instead of guessing from the outset.

Not sure if 250 is enough to see results

You may see some results but it is not worth it. You should use 500/wk 2 shots per week. Sustanon (sust) is what I prefer, others like test e, c, prop etc. In my experience Sustanon (sust) keeps more stable blood levels. Others will disagree.

Injection sites. Plan to rotate from right quad to left quad, to right glute to left glute

You'll be fine with only two sites but hey why not four. I started out using only glutes, now I mostly use quads. Easier to reach, see,etc.

Sorry, I can't help you on the lipids or post cycle therapy (pct).
No, you don't need to stack anything with test for your first run. A mild compound would be OK but you'll be better off in the long run running test alone at first.

 

[bascat]

Thanks for such a rapid response mason95. Do you think that the estrogen blocking of the AI's reduces the mass building capability of the cycle? The reason I ask is that most experts agree that some estrogen is needed to build muscle, but too much is obviously problematic in terms of bloat and gyno. Also, if I were to take Arimidex from the start, what would be a good min dose to begin with?

Once again thanks for the comments and if anyone has anything to contribute in terms of the post cycle therapy (pct) I would be grateful.

 

[mason95]

No prob Bascat.
With no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I'll get some/a lot of bloat and yes I'll feel a bit more powerful. In reality its only maybe a couple extra lbs you can bench or whatever. At the same time I'll have high blood pressure most likely, acne/oily skin, gyno potential, and of course look like crap all bloated and puffy. I'd rather lose the couple of lbs extra on bench than deal with all of the uncomfortable sides.

On the other hand, you want to make sure you don't completely crash your estrogen. As you said this can cause quite a few other issues. That's why I use the minimum dose I need to prevent sides. Usually between .25 and .5 mg of Arimidex eod. A good starting point when you feel the first sign of bloat or oily skin would be .25mg eod.

 

[PITBULLLOCK]

Great advice mason95. Agree with everything stated.

 

[bascat]

No prob Bascat.
With no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I'll get some/a lot of bloat and yes I'll feel a bit more powerful. In reality its only maybe a couple extra lbs you can bench or whatever. At the same time I'll have high blood pressure most likely, acne/oily skin, gyno potential, and of course look like crap all bloated and puffy. I'd rather lose the couple of lbs extra on bench than deal with all of the uncomfortable sides.

On the other hand, you want to make sure you don't completely crash your estrogen. As you said this can cause quite a few other issues. That's why I use the minimum dose I need to prevent sides. Usually between .25 and .5 mg of Arimidex eod. A good starting point when you feel the first sign of bloat or oily skin would be .25mg eod.

Thanks again mason95. The last thing that I want to do (given that I work in a professional office environment) is turn up to work looking like the Pilsbury Dough Boy so i think that an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle sounds like a good idea.

Any thoughts on the diet with my cals sitting 1000 above the daily maintenance level? I note that some of those on a cycle consume about 2000 cals above the base rate but again, I don't want to become overly porky.

 

[mason95]

Thanks again mason95. The last thing that I want to do (given that I work in a professional office environment) is turn up to work looking like the Pilsbury Dough Boy so i think that an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle sounds like a good idea.

Any thoughts on the diet with my cals sitting 1000 above the daily maintenance level? I note that some of those on a cycle consume about 2000 cals above the base rate but again, I don't want to become overly porky.

Right on, the dough boy look doesn't really work for anybody. People will give you all kinds of weird looks too, like they're thinking "what the fuck is wrong with this guy? He looked normal last week."

I'm definitely not the one to ask about diet, I just follow a few guidelines the best that I can. Looks like yours is pretty detailed. You need to start a thread in the diet forum. 3J, among others will give you all the help you need.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

i think you need AT LEAST 3500 cals. your body is much more efficient on cycle.

 

[bascat]

Thanks again to everybody for their advice. I have been researching further since my last post and was wondering if the following tweak seems logical.

As my natural test levels are a little low, I am considering the merits of tapering the end of my cycle (with the aim of minimizing the crash at the end of the cycle, making it easier to recapture natural test levels).

Here is what I am thinking:

Cycle
500mg testosterone e with doses split into biweekly injections (Sun/Wed), Arimidex .25mg EOD to minimize bloat:

Cycle ends - 4 week waiting period before PCT:

Week 1-4: Test E 100mg per week
Taper off Arimidex by week 3.

Taper phase:
6 weeks reducing test and starting Nolva

week 1-6 Test E mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg

and

Nolva 2 weeks at 40mg ED followed by 2 weeks at 20mg ED.

Hopefully this all makes sense.

Thanks for you input.

 

[rubicon09]

theres no need to taper down your dose just run a basic test e cycle at 500mg a week split in two shot for 10 or 12 weeks. wait two week (14 days) after last injection and start pct 40mg a day of nolva for two weeks and then 20mg a day for the last two weeks. arimidex dose is fine through out the cycle and maybe run into pct.

 

[6one7]

Tapering does not work,that is an old school way of thinking but since have learned that it just does not work or lessen suppression.
If your putting synthetic hormones in your body your hpta reconizes them and stays dormant it doesnt reconize that it only a small amount so produses some natty to bring to to natural level.
It just stays dormant.
Stick to one does or if your worried go with a short ester

 

[bascat]

Thanks guys- so the general opinion is that tapering is a waste of time and that I should simply start my proposed Nolva/Adex PCT 2 weeks after my last shot of Test?