To eat or not to eat before early morning cardio

[numba1scrapper]

Whats up guys, after having a child and recently recovering from gyno surgery I am back in the game and plan on going harder then ever, possibly even a fall competition. I have never been big on cardio, but I have also never been more than 10% bodyfat probably my entire life. I'm starting a cycle this week, have my diet in check and have been doing two gym sessions, one right after waking up which involves 45 minutes of slow cardio and abs and a second weight lifting session at night.

My question is, waking up in the morning, even with a casein shake prior to bed, your body is starting to eat away at the muscle. On the other hand, the best time to burn fat is first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Does anyone have an educated answer with supporting research as to which is the better way to go? I want to feed the muscles as soon as I wake up, but my goal is also to get into the single digit bodyfat % as soon as possible.

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[halfwit]

I think MrRippedZilla has a writeup in his thread of knowledge indicating how fasted cardio has a minimal (if any) impact on fat loss. It's still all about calories out vs calories in, and many are starting to acknowledge a greater benefit (might be in the same thread) of LESS cardio (LISS being optimal), and more focus on the weight training.

I wish I had the links at my disposal, but hopefully someone will stop by to corroborate what I'm stating.

 

[Milton]

This may help. http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a...ry-before-bed-facts-vs-myths-lets-debate.html

 

[Roush]

Well if your starting a cycle and running AAS while cutting , then muscle preservation while dieting will be much easier. Morning Fasted cardio used to be the go to fat loss plan for a majority of guys, new research has come out showing that it does not make a whole lot of difference in the big picture though , as halfwit said its still about calories in vs calories out (dr. Layne Norton, a guy that used to teach fasted cardio and who now does not, has some info on this.. look him up).

Soo.. again, if muscle preservation is still of upmost importance to you . Then I would do (what I do) and that is to have a whey isolate protein shake upon waking , then do your morning cardio. You'll still burn fat (because your going to still be in a calorie deficit all day and all week, if your dieting) and you'll not sacrifice muscle for energy.

 

[numba1scrapper]

Thanks for the responses guys, im going to start having a shake first thing in the morning upon waking up.

 

[IronWoman]

I'm roughly 5 weeks out, and found this prep that morning cardio totally blows. Instead I do it after weights, so my energy can be on continuing good/strong lifts. I keep waiting to turn puny in strength and it has not happened yet, I thinks because no fasted cardio.
After lifting, I do about 10-15 minutes, and push calories burned. Somtines less time, and burn 100 calories as fast as possible (which feels like almighty he'll, but I do it anyway).
If by 3 weeks out I still need to go hard, I might do 20 fasted a few times.
In general, my opinion is that if the diet is tight enough, cardio is a second or third tier priority.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

I always have a strong black coffee with 2 sugars and 1500mg of Agmatine and sometimes a few nuts and do cardio about 20 minutes later... Fasted cardio or not, I consider the biggest factor that comes into play is cruising on 125mg Test/125mg EQ E5Days...

Try what works best for you, sometimes I need some carbs before as well to wake me up and give me extra energy. I'm noticing a very slow recomp effect and better vasculairty since walking every morning... In the long run how you perform the cardio is what counts as I believe it's still calories in/calories out = gain/loss

 

[Nickhubes]

Your body doesn't eat up muscle if you're exercising on an empty stomach. It eats up fat, and that is why fasted morning cardio is held in high regard. Unless someone can prove me wrong - I am 99% sure this is how it works. I think I still remember a few lessons from my biology 1 class in college.

In my experience I have had great results from fasted morning cardio. I never go to hard though. Just some light cardio for 20-60 mins. Perhaps a little abs and calf work. Afterwards I eat a solid breakfast. If you were to eat something previous I would just make sure its protein based with little or no carbs, so your body doesn't use the glucose you just consumed for energy. The protein (considering it's not whey!) will not digest fast enough for it to be used as energy. This is all considering you're diet throughout the day is in good order as well.

I also found this stimulates my metabolism big time. I sweat a lot more throughout the day and I always look a lot tighter and drier compared to the days I don't do it. I used to do morning cardio after a big meal, but I never saw impressive results. Fasted morning cardio is the best way to do cardio in my opinion. (before bed after not eating for a while has also given me solid results) This is just my 2cc's. Let us know what you do and how it goes.

BTW - Layne Norton is a total clown.

 

[Roush]

BTW - Layne Norton is a total clown.

"Clowns" don't generally have the capacity to obtain a Doctorate in nutrition, compete as a body builder, compete as a pretty darn good national level natural power lifter, coach multiple body builders to wins, and run a successful company and self employed business.

If that's the type of success clowns accomplish at a young age, , you should probably go looking for your clown suit and red nose ASAP


note: and BTW Layne was an advocate of the position you just laid out above for many years, until he recently changed his position upon further study and research.

 

[Milton]

In a nutshell perhaps the body becomes weakened from constantly having to put out the extra effort every morning that you do this and and sooner or later you will be more sensitive to illnesses.
Breakfast means to break the fast (as we all know) of sleeping every night without food or liquids so some internal organs that dehydrate during the night and need that morning flow of liquids in your food and drinks will someday start to rebel and maybe cause damage that cannot be reversed as they will age faster and bring you a whole new set of problems.
Just my 2 beers worth

 

[STAUNCHED427]

I also found this stimulates my metabolism big time. I sweat a lot more throughout the day and I always look a lot tighter and drier compared to the days I don't do it. I used to do morning cardio after a big meal, but I never saw impressive results.

Must add that I also notice a tighter/dryer look and a slight yet noticable increase in metabolism/body temperature and all around mood and energy for the rest of the day when doing Am cardio. After a meal, breakfast then cardio things just don't seem to go as good as when fasted, albeit it's still cardio. If anything I sip on en electrolyte drink whilst doing Am cardio... hydrating myself and then getting home, even waiting a bit and then eating a protein rich meal including some starchy foods (oatmeal) and healthy fats.

If anything things like Nitric Oxide supplements and in partciular ALCAR is what is going to make more of a difference pre-AM cardio in terms of nutrition/supplements.

And to be absolutely real we are on this forum to enhance what can be done without enhancements so my secret little pre-AM cardio stack that I used to do consists of:

Water + Electrolytes
Clen 20mcg
N02 Supplement (Either Cialis at 10mg ED or use Agmatine OR Citrulline Malate... All 3 of in my eyes the top 3 and money worthy vasolidators that do something besides make your pocket lighter)
1G ALCAR
Black Coffee or Energy Drink because of the Taurine and if I feel like I need a littel sugar rush...
Have also been known to throw in a low dose of dbol (10-20mg max) or Anadrol at 50mg provided I plan on doing some HIIT or it involves a combo of both cardio and resitance training etc as too much of a pump can ruin my cardio in the form of HECTIC calve pumps but you get used to it.
COQ10 aka CoEnzymeQ10... Great stuff, rec. this stuff.

Ofcourse, the Clen+Oral are more of a once or twice a week, I haven't used either in weeks as am sticking to nothing but Test, EQ, Mast and low dose Deca from now on. Orals and Tren just aren't necesary for me for what it's worth. I'm in this for the long run.

In short my view is, a stack of Caffeine+ALCAR+N02 Supplement is going to provide more than what a meal or not will do in terms of fasted cardio.

 

[Roush]

Your body doesn't eat up muscle if you're exercising on an empty stomach. It eats up fat, and that is why fasted morning cardio is held in high regard. Unless someone can prove me wrong - I am 99% sure this is how it works.

the only way the 'math' would make a difference on the timing of cardio, is if your fasted morning cardio was done for the purpose of an actual 'fast' and Not consuming a meal you would normally have eaten. eg., skip breakfast in place of cardio.
because other wise, the math is the SAME no matter where you place cardio.

eg. John has a maintenance calorie of 2500 per day . He is cutting and is dropping his calories by 200 a day and doing cardio which depletes an additional 300 . he is in a calorie deficit of 500 calories per day.

wither he depletes 300 calories doing cardio in the morning, mid day, or at night ,, its still JUST 300 calories period, which calculates into his 500 calorie deficit .. changing the time of the day in NO WAY changes his calorie deficit.

unless .. he does cardio in the morning and skips breakfast , which he would of normally ate, and now his calorie deficit for that day is greater then 500.

Calories in VS calories out .. the whole reason we do cardio is to increase the 'calories out (i.e., deplete calories for cutting)' ,, thats it . and therefore it would not matter at what time in a 24 hour day those 300 cardio calories are depleted.

the math here is objective . its a plain and obvious truth of calculating it.

however ,, the way guys 'feel' and think they look from doing morning cardio is SUBJECTIVE . if they feel better doing this and think they look better .. that's great. getting up first thing in the morning and doing your cardio probably has many personal benefits.

but, depleting 300 calories from doing cardio is depleting 300 calories, period, no matter what time of day its done. part of the process in cutting and burning fat is to get into a calorie deficit, cardio is just a tool to help you get into that deficit.

edit- I'll add that 'fat burning' is part of the whole metabollic-process (ie the big picture) over 24-48 hours , not something that just instantly happens the 30 mins your on a treadmill with an empty stomach

 

[Roush]

Your body doesn't eat up muscle if you're exercising on an empty stomach. It eats up fat,

when doing fasted morning cardio then,, I'm curious, by what mechanism does the body use to DECIDE to say hey lets burn fat for fuel being we have no dietary source of energy, rather then choosing to use muscle for fuel. fat storage is your bodies emergency fuel source . Why would the body go right to tapping into its storage 'stores' when there are muscle proteins (that require additional calories to maintain) ready to be broken down and converted to glucose to use as energy.

if your body is concerned with survival first and foremost. its seems as though exercising in a 'starvation' state, the body would want to break down muscle first being this would lower the bodies daily calorie requirements and make it more efficient,, where as tapping into its own fat stores will NOT lower the bodies daily calorie needs, it will remain the same while more and more of the bodies energy stores are depleted.

just curious to know why you sound so confident that the body will most defintiely use fat, and not muscle, while exercising in a 'fasted' state

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I tend to keep cardio sessions as close to zero as possible and let the diet do the work since its just a much more efficient method to use but for some people (small women, etc) you can only drop calories so much before it becomes stupid.
So for fat loss purposes - fasted, LISS, cardio for the lean guys (sub 10%), normal LISS cardio for everyone else

At low intensity, the risk of muscle loss & negative meta-bolic adaptions is zero.
At moderate/high intensity, the risk of muscle loss is still very low (5-10% of energy used will come from protein for a typical 60min session) but the risk of negative meta-bolic adaptions is very high (can decrease your metabolism by up to 10%, making everything more difficult when cutting).

 

[Roush]

I tend to keep cardio sessions as close to zero as possible and let the diet do the work since its just a much more efficient method to use.

are there any negatives associated with doing cardio while dieting down then ?
I personally enjoy an hour on the treadmill every morning with the headphones on listening to an audio book and getting the blood flow going to start the day . . . any negatives that this could produce in regards to the metabolism or building muscle ?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

are there any negatives associated with doing cardio while dieting down then ?
I personally enjoy an hour on the treadmill every morning with the headphones on listening to an audio book and getting the blood flow going to start the day . . . any negatives that this could produce in regards to the metabolism or building muscle ?

Outside of the dieting context, some aerobic activity is good for your overall health (especially for AAS users) so a few sessions per week makes perfect sense.
It can effect hypertrophy depending on how its programmed (when your doing it, how often, intensity, etc) but health > everything else.


When it comes to dieting, this is a watered down version of what happens so everyone can keep up...

When your in a negative energy balance it takes your body a few weeks to truly realize what's going on. This makes sense since going days without food isn't as big an issue as weeks/months from a physiological perspective.

One of the main adaptations that takes place as a response to the lack of energy availability is that your body becomes more "efficient" by slowing down your overall metabolism (hormones included).
Again, this makes perfect sense. If your finding it difficult to find food then trying to conserve as much energy as possible, so less calories are needed to keep everything ticking along, is the logical step to take.

Now some of this meta-bolic adaptation (10-15%) is unavoidable without pharmaceutical intervention.
For example when you weigh less at the end of your cut its easier, and requires less energy, to keep things going because... well...your smaller.
Your metabolism will recover to a certain point when you get back up to maintenance and your body realizes that energy availability is no longer an issue BUT it will never fully recover unless you regain weight/recomp because, as I stated earlier, your smaller and it requires less energy to keep you going.

This meta-bolic adaption can be made worse with cardio depending on the intensity & frequency of the sessions (LISS is never an issue) because now, on top of the lack of energy coming in, we have an increased level of energy being expended.
Your body, again, becomes more efficient by slowing down your metabolism even further (an extra 10% or so) in order to preserve as much energy as possible.

As a result your overall TDEE goes down more than necessary so you to have to cut cals/increase activity further...when it could've all been avoided with a more thought out approach.

 

[KevinCos]

Hate morning cardio, so I'd better sleep more ... Yes, and stay fat.

 

[Nod51]

I used to take bcaas for morning cardio.

 

[oldmusclemike]

Years and years ago I did sex as morning cardio and I did that on an empty stomach,

 

[Psychotic]

For me an empty stomach = cup of coffee + bcca.