What is the bare minimum one needs to eat, in order to maintain muscle/build it?!

[Future Prodigy]

I know this is sort of a crazy question to be asking in a bodybuilding forum where the common practice is to eat like a horse and one will grow as big and strong as one. However, due to personal reasons I feel the need to cut back on my consumption of materialism, and in that category falls food. The problem is i love working out and i play sports, but i also feel wrong eating the amount of food i do (which i will try not to get into here as I know many ppl will not agree with my philosophy and views).

So, yeah. What is the bare minimum required? Lately I've been eatin 1 or 2 meals a day but I have lost a lot of weight/muscle so this obviously is not the way to do it, so i thought id ask the experts.

 

[outlawtas]

Well first off bodybuilding is pretty much entirely materialistic - there is no practical use for the muscles we have. On top of that it's actually quite an unhealthy sport when it comes to large over-consumptions of food, drastic changes in weight, large stresses put on the body with weights - then the steroids, fat burners and diuretics, etc.

But now that that's out of the way....

1.5g protien per lb of lean mass is pretty much the accepted minimum, with carbs to match or exceed that when bulking and less when cutting.

 

[TheMilkMan]

I know this is sort of a crazy question to be asking in a bodybuilding forum where the common practice is to eat like a horse and one will grow as big and strong as one. However, due to personal reasons I feel the need to cut back on my consumption of materialism, and in that category falls food. The problem is i love working out and i play sports, but i also feel wrong eating the amount of food i do (which i will try not to get into here as I know many ppl will not agree with my philosophy and views).

So, yeah. What is the bare minimum required? Lately I've been eatin 1 or 2 meals a day but I have lost a lot of weight/muscle so this obviously is not the way to do it, so i thought id ask the experts.

I'm not going to tell you what to do and what not to do, but you NEED to eat to grow, and DEFINITELY need to eat to maintain... therefore what your doing is putting yourself at a deficit and losing muscle mass and weight

a good estimate, nothing more than that is bodyweight(lbs) x 15 kcals = maintenance... so for me 235-240 x 15 = 3525/3600, this is also assuming your not very active etc...

 

[Suareezay]

lean bodyweight in pounds x 15 will put you at ballpark maintenance calories. A modest 500 calorie surplus will allow you to grow, but you should be able to grow on even less. depending.

oops just saw milkdacow already beat me to it.

 

[diabou]

but - lean mass (after substracting fat mass from the overall weight) or body weight?
it's HUGE difference and my observations lead me to conclusion, that lean mass is the right factor to multiply by 15. what do you think?

 

[Suareezay]

the leaner you are, the less it matters. at 8% the difference wont be as significant. at 30% it would.

use lean bodyweight.

 

[theincredible1]

I can tell you eating is more important in my mind then training to be honest and most people would agree probably.. I have a stomach virus and recently in 5 days lost 16 pounds, thats no joke because simply i dont get food down!! I will be damn sure to gain every pound back tho once it goes away!

 

[outlawtas]

I can tell you eating is more important in my mind then training to be honest and most people would agree probably..

Definitely not true, but I understand what your getting at. What would yield more gains - training and no diet, or no training and diet? Obviously the first one because your muscles won't grow unless you ask them to do so.

Training and diet are equally important - however I would say executing a proper diet is 10 times harder than training. Everyone that worksout loves to pump weights but eating oatmeal and chicken breast 5 times a day takes much more dedication, especially with work, kids and the plethora of junk food around.

 

[theincredible1]

so what your basically getting at is that.... I was right.. I mean u said definitely not true but when you backed it up you pretty well agreed with me..

 

[test/tren/eq]

I think the calories differ for everyone. I'm 6'1 and 225...my maintainence would be 3375 calories. I feel if I ate that many calories I would be able to bulk up with that. I'm fine with like 2500 calories, which can be made into 5 meals

 

[diabou]

exactly.
many kcals calculators indicated, that i need around 3600-3700kcals just to maintain and over 4000kcal to gain. so i ate it on cycle. did i get bigger? definitely. did i get A LOT fatter? sure. it's no problem to gain muscle along with a lot of fat. the other way around is much harder.

i've found, that @250lbs and 17-18% bf i need around 3100 kcals to maintain, and i grow at quite fast pace around 3500kcals.
so it really depends on person - but it was DirkMoneyshot, who opened my eyes on the subject of eating over 4kcals (he mentioned, that he has a lot of clients - from housewives to bodybuilders, and rarely anyone eats over 4000kcals; it was really something to think about).

 

[Suareezay]

exactly.
many kcals calculators indicated, that i need around 3600-3700kcals just to maintain and over 4000kcal to gain. so i ate it on cycle. did i get bigger? definitely. did i get A LOT fatter? sure. it's no problem to gain muscle along with a lot of fat. the other way around is much harder.

i've found, that @250lbs and 17-18% bf i need around 3100 kcals to maintain, and i grow at quite fast pace around 3500kcals.
so it really depends on person - but it was DirkMoneyshot, who opened my eyes on the subject of eating over 4kcals (he mentioned, that he has a lot of clients - from housewives to bodybuilders, and rarely anyone eats over 4000kcals; it was really something to think about).

you were using the wrong calorie calculator.

250 lbs - 18% bf = 205 lean pounds.
205 x 15 (as quoted above) = 3075.

a 25 calorie difference between your claimed maintenance calories and the calculated result. thats about 3 grams of fat, or about 6g protein difference - pretty spot on if you ask me.

 

[Suareezay]

so what your basically getting at is that.... I was right.. I mean u said definitely not true but when you backed it up you pretty well agreed with me..

no.

you said diet is more important than training.

he said they are equally important.

thats not the same thing.

 

[maverickLA]

I'm 185 and about 7% - I maintain very well on 2000 cals a day..always have I really do believe it depends on the individual - experiment

 

[Starkraven]

The only way to find out is just to eat and see how a certain amount of food affects you. Try to gauge the amounts by just looking at your plate and listening to your body. If you aren't gaining strength or look any bigger or aren't adding weight, just increase the portions. Keep it simple, you dont need to follow alot of numbers as listed here but they can be a base to start from. Stick to 5-7 meals per day. IF you feel hungry, eat more. I like to have shakes between meals. That is protein shakes with flax oil, peanut butter and plain oats in the blender, not just protein by itself. This enables you to eat about only 3-4 solid meals as eating 5-7 meals of food is difficult. I keep off any fat gains by eating real clean (no junk at all or sugars except post-workout) and by doing cardio 3-4 days/week in the morning on empty.

 

[diabou]

Suareezay: yup, definitely true. but at least 3 different calculators ask about bodyweight. this, and the fact that everywhere you read "you must eat huge amounts of food to gain, on juice especially" provided me an idea to eat >4000kcals daily.

Starkraven: i am not sure about cardio. when i do cardio in the gaining mass phase, my strength gains are slower (this is very low impact cardio on empty stomach), and i don't see any real evidence of keeping fat gains at bay. when i do cardio during dieting - i loose strength or at least i don't gain new strength.

this time i just lowered calories and played with carbs/calories cycling. the result: whoa - i saw a vein on my shoulder and arms, it's a view that has not been seen in 3 years. and my strength is going up. with no cardio.

 

[Suareezay]

Suareezay: yup, definitely true. but at least 3 different calculators ask about bodyweight. this, and the fact that everywhere you read "you must eat huge amounts of food to gain, on juice especially" provided me an idea to eat >4000kcals daily.

there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding calorie intake. in the past, i too heeded the "eat everything you see" advice. it gets you big, and it gets you strong, but its impossible to stay lean in the process. i always recommend eating as few calories as will allow you to consistently increase performance, and gain weight at a rate of about 3-4 pounds per month.

 

[Double3]

Starkraven: i am not sure about cardio. when i do cardio in the gaining mass phase, my strength gains are slower (this is very low impact cardio on empty stomach), and i don't see any real evidence of keeping fat gains at bay. when i do cardio during dieting - i loose strength or at least i don't gain new strength.
.

Maybe if you are doing some high intesity cardio.

I've never had a problem doing low intesity(walking) and not getting stronger or gaining any size.

 

[Starkraven]

im betting you are an ectomorph, right?

Suareezay: yup, definitely true. but at least 3 different calculators ask about bodyweight. this, and the fact that everywhere you read "you must eat huge amounts of food to gain, on juice especially" provided me an idea to eat >4000kcals daily.

Starkraven: i am not sure about cardio. when i do cardio in the gaining mass phase, my strength gains are slower (this is very low impact cardio on empty stomach), and i don't see any real evidence of keeping fat gains at bay. when i do cardio during dieting - i loose strength or at least i don't gain new strength.

this time i just lowered calories and played with carbs/calories cycling. the result: whoa - i saw a vein on my shoulder and arms, it's a view that has not been seen in 3 years. and my strength is going up. with no cardio.

 

[diabou]

hehe, i wish. actually gaining size for me is EASY and getting fat also. i was around 255-260lbs/5'9" at the end of cycle - so yes, basically even walking (very low impact cardio) seemed like a f*cking mountain hike. i couldn't go further than 100meters without resting and waiting till cramps in lower back go away.

i did cardio religiously, but i didn't see any real benefits from it. now - i don't do cardio, i'm getting leaner and my lifts are going up. so - basically i have all i want without cardio (which i really hate).