A more in depth guide to nutrition

intermittent fasting/lean gains doesn't have to be 3 meals. It works fine for muscle anabolism. I've exploded on leangains. As long as macros and calories are met, i've always gained strength/lost fat/built muscle. No fucking question. Animal studies can give us a glimpse at what MIGHT pertain to humans, but you need to take them with a grain of salt. Rida, i second what dre said. That's a really good guideline for protein intake. A lot of the time protein requirements are overstated. It's much simpler to do 1 gram per lbs, than to calculate lean mass. I've read and follow the exact same formula that dre just mentioned. It works fine for me. Extra protein is useful for appetite control but not much else.
 
Proto, an essential nutrient BY DEFINITION, an objective meaning not subjective, is a nutrient that is required for the body's survival and one that cannot be created by the body or not created in sufficent quantities. Fats and protein are the essential macronutrients not carbohydrates. This is fact. This cannot be disputed. Without EFA's and EAA's you will die. This is another fact that cannot be disputed. These nutrients cannot be synthesized by the body and therefor are termed ESSENTIAL NUTRIENTS. Try as you might, you cannot make the same argument for carbohydrates. The body will not succumb to death no matter how long it's deprived of carbohydrates. Again, not up for debate, it's everywhere in the studies, the medical literature, etc.

The reason to replenish glycogen stores is one of convenience and it does serve a good but not CRITICAL function. Replenishing glycogen will help your intensity remain high in the gym. If you're dieting down carbs will also help reverse the problems associated with leptin and ghrelin. When you're dieting down without carbs or on a severely carb restricted diet the body will fight back by altering leptin and ghrelin hormones as well as thyroid hormones. 1 big ~200g carb meal is enough to reverse his process and get your hormones to stop 'fighting' you. Although it's a benefit, it is not a necessity and again not an essential nutrient.

Read: A Primer on Nutrition Part 1 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

What I said above doesn't mean carbs are bad, not to be desired, to be avoided, provide no benefit etc. It's just that they are not essential as defined by the literature. Yes we can make arguments about how carbs are beneficial, can help bulking, etc but that's not the argument here. You had made the claim carbs were "essential for recovery and muscle growth regardless of their essential nutrient status" which is not true bc keto dieters don't need carbs to recover from workouts or build muscle.

In regards to your experiment with running no carbs there are many flaws making it erroneous to draw definitive conclusions from. Loss of Strength is not an accurate indicator of muscle loss (lacking carbs your intensity suffers in the gym making strength loss during a workout a reality, but it comes back), did you do a bodpod or dexa scan to measure body composition BEFORE AND AFTER EACH EXPERIMENT??? I doubt it meaning your claim of losing muscle just a claim. We cannot definitively say one way or another what happened without an accurate body comp assessment (calipers don't count). Patient reported diets are a huge source of error in studies and we've learned that to accurately assess intake in a study it must be done by the researchers not the patients. Patients usually over or underestimate intake. Just bc fat cals were higher than protein cals doesn't mean much, a rough estimate is 65%cals from fat to prevent gluconeogensis but it can vary slightly from person to person. You also didn't have a zero carb intake, almost all foods have trace carbs. you'd need two weeks or so just to get into ketosis meaning your 1 month run was only 2wks of true ketosis which isn't long enough to determine anything. Finally, you may be one of the few who cannot adapt to using ketones as fuel. This doesn't mean you can't run keto or that you NEED carbs for survival it just means you'll perform better with carbs (which no one argued against).

Bullshit on muscle 'swelling' increasing protein synthesis. Protein synthesis can be maximally stimulated with some protein alone, and sweeping the muscle doesn't do jack shit to growth. Ask all the people who run nitric oxide products how much mass it has gained them. Creatine drives intramuscular water storage, by your definition this means creatine is an essential supplement. Yes muscles are 75% water but water doesn't make bigger muscles, it makes bloated muscles.

Muscle hypertrophy, sarcoplasmic hypertoephy (associated with increased muscle mass) is an increase in the cross-sectional area of the muscle tissue. Water has no effect on this whatsoever.


Carbs may be a more efficient source of energy as the body won't need to turn ketones to glucose but that's not better. Some people LOVE low carb diets like keto and do better on that. It's an individualistic issue.

That Layne Norton study is irrelevant to our discussion, it's not about absorbing a days worth of protein in a single meal (if it's the one I'm thinking of). Let me ask you this, why is protein the only nutrient that can't be absorbed if taken all in one meal? What about fats and carbs? Do hose get pissed out like protein? We wouldn't have obesity if that was the case.

IF diet has a 18/6 fasting/feeding window typically. 3 or 1 meals it's the window more than anything. The warrior diet does in fact advocate 1 big meal a day. IF may not be optimal for YOU, you can't blanket statement the whole population bc your results were not great. Again BS on IF not being an optimal way to build muscle. I helped several friends set up IF diets on a bulk and they've gained a minimum of 15lbs lbm in record time.

I ask you to quantify results vs BEST results. Please how much more muscle mass will one gain with the BEST results? You're missing he forest for the trees by focusing solely on protein synthesis and missing out on net protein balance as RippedZilla pointed out. Protein synthesis isn't even the whole part of the equation and not even the most important part.

I just got a hard on!! Lmfao, everything he just said is 100%. I can confirm this with my own knowledge and experience.
 
Just to chuck something in the mix, science doesn't always pan out in reality with the body.

http://s30.postimg.org/e0nynwln5/image.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yes it does, the MISAPPLIED results or INCORRECT assumptions BASED off science don't always pan out in reality but that's not the fault of science ;)
 
http://s30.postimg.org/e0nynwln5/image.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yes it does, the MISAPPLIED results or INCORRECT assumptions BASED off science don't always pan out in reality but that's not the fault of science ;)[/QUOTE]

I came bro. You're on a roll today :dance2:
 
http://s30.postimg.org/e0nynwln5/image.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yes it does, the MISAPPLIED results or INCORRECT assumptions BASED off science don't always pan out in reality but that's not the fault of science ;)[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Thats why bodybuilders hit their peak to perfection at every single show they enter.
The body reacts to different things at different times.
You can follow something to the letter one year and the next, it simply doesnt work,
Science says it works the same every time.
 

Thats why bodybuilders hit their peak to perfection at every single show they enter.
The body reacts to different things at different times.
You can follow something to the letter one year and the next, it simply doesnt work,
Science says it works the same every time.[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't, stop making up excuses. A person changes from year to year, if you don't or can't see that then it's on you. Changing the variables means changing the results, a 5th grader would know that.

Edit* science says for the same situation, variables, stimuli, etc you'll get the same results yes. Going from year to year is changing the variables though making your statement worthless
 
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Proto, an essential nutrient BY DEFINITION, an objective meaning not subjective, is a nutrient that is required for the body's survival and one that cannot be created by the body or not created in sufficent quantities. Fats and protein are the essential macronutrients not carbohydrates. This is fact. This cannot be disputed. Without EFA's and EAA's you will die. This is another fact that cannot be disputed. These nutrients cannot be synthesized by the body and therefor are termed ESSENTIAL NUTRIENTS. Try as you might, you cannot make the same argument for carbohydrates. The body will not succumb to death no matter how long it's deprived of carbohydrates. Again, not up for debate, it's everywhere in the studies, the medical literature, etc.

The reason to replenish glycogen stores is one of convenience and it does serve a good but not CRITICAL function. Replenishing glycogen will help your intensity remain high in the gym. If you're dieting down carbs will also help reverse the problems associated with leptin and ghrelin. When you're dieting down without carbs or on a severely carb restricted diet the body will fight back by altering leptin and ghrelin hormones as well as thyroid hormones. 1 big ~200g carb meal is enough to reverse his process and get your hormones to stop 'fighting' you. Although it's a benefit, it is not a necessity and again not an essential nutrient.

Read: A Primer on Nutrition Part 1 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

What I said above doesn't mean carbs are bad, not to be desired, to be avoided, provide no benefit etc. It's just that they are not essential as defined by the literature. Yes we can make arguments about how carbs are beneficial, can help bulking, etc but that's not the argument here. You had made the claim carbs were "essential for recovery and muscle growth regardless of their essential nutrient status" which is not true bc keto dieters don't need carbs to recover from workouts or build muscle.

In regards to your experiment with running no carbs there are many flaws making it erroneous to draw definitive conclusions from. Loss of Strength is not an accurate indicator of muscle loss (lacking carbs your intensity suffers in the gym making strength loss during a workout a reality, but it comes back), did you do a bodpod or dexa scan to measure body composition BEFORE AND AFTER EACH EXPERIMENT??? I doubt it meaning your claim of losing muscle just a claim. We cannot definitively say one way or another what happened without an accurate body comp assessment (calipers don't count). Patient reported diets are a huge source of error in studies and we've learned that to accurately assess intake in a study it must be done by the researchers not the patients. Patients usually over or underestimate intake. Just bc fat cals were higher than protein cals doesn't mean much, a rough estimate is 65%cals from fat to prevent gluconeogensis but it can vary slightly from person to person. You also didn't have a zero carb intake, almost all foods have trace carbs. you'd need two weeks or so just to get into ketosis meaning your 1 month run was only 2wks of true ketosis which isn't long enough to determine anything. Finally, you may be one of the few who cannot adapt to using ketones as fuel. This doesn't mean you can't run keto or that you NEED carbs for survival it just means you'll perform better with carbs (which no one argued against).

Bullshit on muscle 'swelling' increasing protein synthesis. Protein synthesis can be maximally stimulated with some protein alone, and sweeping the muscle doesn't do jack shit to growth. Ask all the people who run nitric oxide products how much mass it has gained them. Creatine drives intramuscular water storage, by your definition this means creatine is an essential supplement. Yes muscles are 75% water but water doesn't make bigger muscles, it makes bloated muscles.

Muscle hypertrophy, sarcoplasmic hypertoephy (associated with increased muscle mass) is an increase in the cross-sectional area of the muscle tissue. Water has no effect on this whatsoever.


Carbs may be a more efficient source of energy as the body won't need to turn ketones to glucose but that's not better. Some people LOVE low carb diets like keto and do better on that. It's an individualistic issue.

That Layne Norton study is irrelevant to our discussion, it's not about absorbing a days worth of protein in a single meal (if it's the one I'm thinking of). Let me ask you this, why is protein the only nutrient that can't be absorbed if taken all in one meal? What about fats and carbs? Do hose get pissed out like protein? We wouldn't have obesity if that was the case.

IF diet has a 18/6 fasting/feeding window typically. 3 or 1 meals it's the window more than anything. The warrior diet does in fact advocate 1 big meal a day. IF may not be optimal for YOU, you can't blanket statement the whole population bc your results were not great. Again BS on IF not being an optimal way to build muscle. I helped several friends set up IF diets on a bulk and they've gained a minimum of 15lbs lbm in record time.

I ask you to quantify results vs BEST results. Please how much more muscle mass will one gain with the BEST results? You're missing he forest for the trees by focusing solely on protein synthesis and missing out on net protein balance as RippedZilla pointed out. Protein synthesis isn't even the whole part of the equation and not even the most important part.

I already knew carbs are not an essential nutrient for SURVIVAL, i was talking about essential in the bodybuilding world, i should of explained better i guess.
Anyway, i guess we can agree and disagree, I use science and use it to my advantage but dont rely on it, what i hate is the people who read something and automatically say this the truth, this the best way to do it without experiment with it, just because you can read as tudy doesnt make you a guru and no im not talking about you dre, just in general.

I always tell people find what works best for your body, everyones body reacts differently to macros r whatever, if IF workrs best then do it, its just not for me.
 
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I already knew carbs are not an essential nutrient for SURVIVAL, i was talking about essential in the bodybuilding world, i should of explained better i guess.
Anyway, i guess we can agree and disagree, I use science and use it to my advantage but dont rely on it, what i hate is the people who read something and automatically say this the truth, this the best way to do it without experiment with it, just because you can read as tudy doesnt make you a guru and no im not talking about you dre, just in general.

I always tell people find what works best for your body, everyones body reacts differently to macros r whatever, if IF workrs best then do it, its just not for me.

I understand Proto but you're misapplying the science to suit your beliefs. A study or science is the only way to prove a cause and effect relationship, there's no other way. Even your own experimentation doesn't show cause and effect. It could show a simple association or possible correlation but neither of those is proof of anything.

Exit* if you're making progress than congratulations and do what you're doing. This isn't an attempt to force you to change anything. Simply pointing out some issues brother. That's all
 
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