bro, if youre trying to bulk, or gain ,your stomach will rarely be empty, mine hardly is, and i almost never take it on an empty stomach.it doesnt seem to truly make a diffrence as any unused creatine is excreated in the urine anyhow. i dont see how taking it before and after a w/o would be of benifit. it still has to be metabolized and assimilated. the important thing is that you have it available for your muscles when its needed.