Confused by stickys

[308power]

Hey guys, I know I am usually the one replying to peoples questions but I have something I don't understand. Everything thing that I have read states that Testosterone should be run at a higher dosage than Deca to avoid libido problems. As many of you know, I have recently torn my ACL, MCL, TCL and meniscus. I obviously want to increase my rate of collagen synthesis as much as possible to help with the healing process here.

In Stone Cold's sticky regarding collagen synthesis, he states " To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited." and have

I am an experienced user who has gone over 2g+ injectables a week with Testosterone being my main compound, therefore libido has never been a problem. I have use Nandrolone before, but at only around 400mg a week while Testosterone being over a gram.

Do you all see a problem with running 200mg Testosterone and 1g Nandrolone a week? Obviously running prami at .5mg a day for prolactin. I am not sensitive to gynocomastia at all.

 

[Rumpy]

Not that it matters, but are you going to run deca or NPP, just curious. I've only used NPP, but at around 400 per week, so I'm not really qualified to comment on this one. A gram sounds like a lot to me, but that's just me. I've read the same stickie and I'm considering running this in the future, but I was thinking 200 test and 400-600 NPP. Really curios to hear how this goes if you do it.

 

[308power]

I have run NPP before, but I am going to run Deca unless anyone see's a reason otherwise. I was really concerned about the 1 year detection time in case I needed to be drug tested for something, but it will be around a year before I compete again, and I compete untested anyways.

It is a reasonably high dose, but considering my previous use, I feel that it would be beneficial for me to use a larger dose to account for androgen receptor desensitization. However, as my main goal is to re-strengthen these ligaments as quickly as possible and not necessarily to make muscular gains, mabye a lower dose would be more beneficial?

I'm just not confident with my knowledge surrounding Nandrolone, with such a low dose of Testosterone.

The "cycle" would be run for 16-20 weeks. HPTA recovery is not a problem to consider because I am on TRT.

 

[DreDay187]

Hey guys, I know I am usually the one replying to peoples questions but I have something I don't understand. Everything thing that I have read states that Testosterone should be run at a higher dosage than Deca to avoid libido problems. As many of you know, I have recently torn my ACL, MCL, TCL and meniscus. I obviously want to increase my rate of collagen synthesis as much as possible to help with the healing process here.

In Stone Cold's sticky regarding collagen synthesis, he states " To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited." and have

I am an experienced user who has gone over 2g+ injectables a week with Testosterone being my main compound, therefore libido has never been a problem. I have use Nandrolone before, but at only around 400mg a week while Testosterone being over a gram.

Do you all see a problem with running 200mg Testosterone and 1g Nandrolone a week? Obviously running prami at .5mg a day for prolactin. I am not sensitive to gynocomastia at all.

I know this doesn't directly answer your question but it seems to me you're under the assumption that more is always better. Muscle protein synthesis and collagen synthesis can only be raised to a certain degree above which is just not possible. You GEt to the point of diminishing returns where lets say hypothetically a 500mg/wk dose of deca would increase collagen synthesis by 50%. Adding another 500mg to that weekly will not increase it another 50%. The more you add the less and less you get out of it. Now I have no experience in nandrolone but I have yet to see anyone dose it as high as you're suggesting, not saying it couldn't be done, but to what effect is impossible to tell. I'll look into my Anabolics text when I get home tonight and try to dig up some stuff that may shed light on this but I just wanted to make you aware of the fact more is not always better, especially if you look at it from a side effect and economical standpoint. I do wish you the best of luck and speediest of recoveries. I believe you were the one going for ~900squat if I'm not mistaken and that is STRENGTH right there lol

 

[308power]

Thanks for the reply doc! I am well aware of the point of diminishing returns, as much as I dont want to acknowledge it. Studies have shown that around 400mg Nandrolone a week increases collagen synthesis by around 300%. That's a huge difference.

Optimistically, We all want to receive maximum results on the minimum amount of drugs. I am well experienced with using drugs for strength gains, not so much for other reasons, which is why I asked if I could get away with a lower dose.

Economically, money is not a problem at all. A bottle of deca for me costs less than 30$ and I have around 200ml sitting around. If I am paying 20G's for a whole knee reconstruction, whats 15$ a week on deca?

 

[DreDay187]

Thanks for the reply doc! I am well aware of the point of diminishing returns, as much as I dont want to acknowledge it. Studies have shown that around 400mg Nandrolone a week increases collagen synthesis by around 300%. That's a huge difference.

Optimistically, We all want to receive maximum results on the minimum amount of drugs. I am well experienced with using drugs for strength gains, not so much for other reasons, which is why I asked if I could get away with a lower dose.

Economically, money is not a problem at all. A bottle of deca for me costs less than 30$ and I have around 200ml sitting around. If I am paying 20G's for a whole knee reconstruction, whats 15$ a week on deca?

You say studies showed collagen synthesis can be raised %300 in 400mg nandrolone but in your OP you mentioned a 1g/wk dose. Anyway i Get what you're saying, just wanted to make sure you were looking at this one sided. I actually have my copy of "Anabolics" up now, I'll see what I can find for you in regards to this brother.

 

[heavyiron]

1 gram of Nandrolone weekly is up there. You can do this and will grow big time if nutrition and training are dialed in but I imagine your libido may suffer. I have run Tren higher than Test at the end of prep various times and I felt absolutely fine as far as libido myself but 400mg of Nandrolone weekly lowers my sex drive a bit. Its nothing too bad but it is noticeable.

 

[DreDay187]

Am J Sports Med. 2006 Aug;34(8):1274-80. Epub 2006 Apr 24.
Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the achilles tendon in rats.
Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SE, Selistre-de-Araujo HS.
Source
Departamento de Ciências Fisiológicas, Universidade Federal de São Carlos, Rodovia Washington Luis, Km 235, São Carlos, SP, 13565-905, Brazil.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The indiscriminate use of anabolic-androgenic steroids has been shown to induce pathologic changes in the Achilles tendon in several situations.
PURPOSE:
To study tendon remodeling in rats treated with anabolic-androgenic steroids combined with an exercise program.
STUDY DESIGN:
Controlled laboratory study.
METHODS:
Wistar rats were grouped as follows: sedentary (group I), injected with anabolic-androgenic steroids only (group II), trained only (group III), and trained and injected with anabolic-androgenic steroids (group IV). The trained groups performed jumps in water: 4 series of 10 jumps each, with an overload of 50% to 70% of the animal's body weight and a 30-second rest interval between series, for 6 weeks. Anabolic-androgenic steroids (5 mg/kg) were injected subcutaneously. Activity of matrix metallopeptidases, a marker for tendon remodeling, was analyzed in tissue extracts by zymography on gelatin-sodium dodecyl sulfate-polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis.
RESULTS:
Morphological analyses of tendons showed that in group II, the most external layer that covers the tendon was thicker with aggregation of the collagen fibers, suggesting an increase in collagen synthesis. In group IV, an inflammatory infiltrate and fibrosis in tendons as well as a pronounced increase of the serum corticosterone level were observed. This training protocol upregulated matrix metallopeptidase activity, whereas anabolic-androgenic steroid treatment strongly inhibited this activity. The appearance of lytic bands with molecular masses of approximately 62 and 58 kDa suggests the activation of matrix metallopeptidase-2.
CONCLUSION:
Anabolic-androgenic steroid treatment can impair tissue remodeling in the tendons of animals undergoing physical exercise by down-regulating matrix metallopeptidase activity, thus increasing the potential for tendon injury.
CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
Since the AAS abuse is so widespread, a better comprehension of the pathological effects induced by these drugs may be helpful for the development of new forms of therapy of AAS-induced lesions.
PMID: 16636352 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with... [Am J Sports Med. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

^^^performed on rats

 

[DreDay187]

Unfallchirurg. 2008 Jan;111(1):46-9.
[Successive ruptures of patellar and Achilles tendons. Anabolic steroids in competitive sports].
[Article in German]
Isenberg J, Prokop A, Skouras E.
Source
Klinik und Poliklinik für Unfall-, Hand und Wiederherstellungschirurgie, Klinikum der Universität zu Köln, Joseph-Stelzmann-Strasse 9, 50924, Köln. isenbergajem@aol.com
Abstract
Derivatives of testosterone or of 19-nor-testosterone are used as anabolics for the purpose of improving performance although the effect of anabolics is known still to be under discussion. The use of anabolic steroids continues among competitive athletes despite increased controls and increasingly frequent dramatic incidents connected with them. Whereas metabolic dysfunction during anabolic use is well documented, ruptures of the large tendons are rarely reported. Within 18 months, a 29-year-old professional footballer needed surgery for rupture of the patellar tendon and of both Achilles tendons. Carefully directed questioning elicited confirmation that he had taken different anabolic steroids regularly for 3 years with the intention of improving his strength. After each operation anabolic steroids were taken again at a high dosage during early convalescence and training. Minimally invasive surgery and open suturing techniques led to complete union of the Achilles tendons in good time. Training and anabolic use (metenolon 300 mg per week) started early after suturing of the patellar tendon including bone tunnels culminated in histologically confirmed rerupture after 8 weeks. After a ligament reconstruction with a semitendinosus tendon graft with subsequent infection, the tendon and reserve traction apparatus were lost. Repeated warnings of impaired healing if anabolic use was continued had been given without success. In view of the high number of unrecorded cases in competitive and athletic sports, we can assume that the use of anabolic steroids is also of quantitative relevance in the operative treatment of tendon ruptures.
PMID: 17701152 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Successive ruptures of patellar and Achilles ... [Unfallchirurg. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[DreDay187]

Anabolic-androgenic steroids (AASs) may be used by body builders, elite athletes, and recreational sports competitors to improve strength, muscle hypertrophy, increase training load capacity, and improve recovery for optimizing athletic performance. High doses and repetitive use of AASs can have various adverse effects on multiple organs and systems including, but not limited to, the cardiovascular, hepatic, dermatologic, musculoskeletal, reproductive-endocrine, and even psychiatric [46]. For example, there have been several reported cases of upper and lower extremity tendon rupture [17, 19, 43, 61, 63, 72], which may be caused by increased forces being transmitted from the hypertrophied musculature to tendon. Anabolic steroids may alter tendon crimp morphology, which can affect risk of tendon rupture [40]. On the other hand, there is a legitimate role for controlled use of AASs as an adjuvant medical therapy in the treatment of cachexia for patients with chronic disease [6]. In orthopaedics, AASs may be beneficial for fracture healing, soft tissue healing, and postoperative rehabilitation [21]. In a rabbit model AASs reduce immobilization-induced muscle atrophy [65].

Experimental animal models have been used to investigate the effects of anabolic steroids in the presence of exercise on biomechanical properties of tendon [36, 48]. These studies demonstrate anabolic steroid use during exercise produces a stiffer tendon which absorbs less energy and fails with less elongation. A recent in vivo study reported AAS treatment can impair Achilles***8217; tendon remodeling by down-regulating matrix metallopeptidase activity, and thus increase the potential for injury [47]. In an in vitro rotator cuff tendon model, human supraspinatus tenocytes treated with nandrolone decanoate and subjected to mechanical load had more organized actin cytoskeleton and increased collagen matrix remodeling and mechanical properties [68]. More research is required to determine the effect of AASs on tendon healing, but this was the first known study to document the acute effect of anabolic steroids on human rotator cuff tendon cells. The knowledge gained from these studies may provide insight into the biologic effects of anabolic steroids on tendon.

Biological Augmentation of Rotator Cuff Tendon Repair

 

[308power]

Well, from what my use is, I see the general consensus is that 400mg would suffice. Thanks again for the info Doc. So we have one study that shows that collagen synthesis was increased in rats, but another study showing that anabolic use caused the loss of a repair.

This backs up what Stone Cold originally posted. Testosterone only will give you increased muscle and weak tendons, while something like Nandrolone will give gains around all aspects. I really wish there were more studies on anabolics use in humans.

My girlfriend has been getting kind of annoyed with the ridiculous sex drive anyways.

 

[DreDay187]

Everything I'm reading brother says low AAS use can be beneficial in the long run but high doses is actually detrimental (granted some of the reports I've seen are anecdotal and he said/she said) but they do have some basis if you read though the studies I've posted.

Anabolics mentions effective doses of deca at 2-3mg/KG BW and the anecdotal evidence I've seen suggests low testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doses of test around 200-300mg/wk TOPS. Sorry I couldn't have been of further help but this is what I'm finding. Keep your doses low as possible. 1g/wk could be more of a detriment than an aid in healing.

Also in the last link I posted it mentioned how nicotine and NSAID's can impair tendon healing (off topic but found it interesting). Good luck to you

 

[DreDay187]

Well, from what my use is, I see the general consensus is that 400mg would suffice. Thanks again for the info Doc. So we have one study that shows that collagen synthesis was increased in rats, but another study showing that anabolic use caused the loss of a repair.

This backs up what Stone Cold originally posted. Testosterone only will give you increased muscle and weak tendons, while something like Nandrolone will give gains around all aspects. I really wish there were more studies on anabolics use in humans.

My girlfriend has been getting kind of annoyed with the ridiculous sex drive anyways.

The loss of repair can be due to: too much AAS causing a "brittleness" to tendons (not scientific I know but anecdotal), the untrained AAS rats had increased collagen synthesis but trained AND AAS rats were more PRONE to injury possibly due to down-regulation of matrix metallopeptidase activity, or and altering tendon crimp morphology which risks tendon rupture.

From what I've seen (I'm no expert), it has a lot to do with dosing. Keep a low testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of test and somewhere along the lines of 2-3mg/KG BW.


For the bolded, I believe AML has a product now that helps with female sex drive. Maybe she should give it a thought and its a win-win for both of you

 

[heavyiron]

For the bolded, I believe AML has a product now that helps with female sex drive. Maybe she should give it a thought and its a win-win for both of you

I also have some products for that. Its called cash, back rubs, wine and a nice dinner.....and most of all, listen to her....

 

[DreDay187]

I also have some products for that. Its called cash, back rubs, wine and a nice dinner.....and most of all, listen to her....

How can I argue with that except if she's not my wife, she's not getting the cash. Back rubs, wine, dinner, and an open ear are always available though.

 

[308power]

Hahahaha to the the sex drive! Theres no way I can take her out to eat 4x a day! I am actually around 150 kilos so that would put me at 400mg Deca anyways. 200 Test and 400 Deca is where I should be at. Thanks for the advice guys.

Whats the stuff from AML? I don't have the URL or email for them if anyone feels the need to help someone...

 

[Rumpy]

I think Doc means flunitrazepam

JK Doc.

 

[308power]

Roofie jokes? hahaha. Not that I have any problems with women, but it would be interesting to try things without ever being asked about it later....

 

[DreDay187]

Lmao Rumpy that wouldn't necessarily help her libido just her inhibitions.

308- that effect only happens when coupled with alcohol. When taken on its own it doesn't knock you out, just enhances sexual fervor and libido.

 

[308power]

Shows you how much experience I have with the subject haha