Desperate for some PCT Guidance

[Brando1289]

Hi there,

To put it bluntly, I'm really lost in terms of my PCT and desparately need some help.

I finished a 5 month cycle around the beginning of March and started taking hcg every 3 days (1000 iu) and 0.5 mg arimidex every 2 days. I know I am doing this ass-backwards in terms of asking for proper pct, however - I was relying on someone with experience to guide me thru the pct - but I don't feel at this point I'm getting the support/guidance that I need, so I'm at my wits end. I find there is so much conflicting opinions online - and I really would like an honest opinion from someone that knows what they're talking about.

Here are the details of my first cycle that was a 5 month long cycle:

T400
800 mg weekly for first 8 weeks
1200 mg weekly for last 3 months

NPP
300 mg weekly for first 3 weeks
600 mg weekly for weeks 4-8 weeks

Masterone
400 mg weekly after completion of NPP (last 3 months)

Anavar
100 mg daily for last 10 weeks of cycle

For my PCT:

I started HCG 19 days ago (Mar 8) and have been taking 1,000 IU every 3 days along with 0.5mg of Arimidex every 2 days. I also have Clomid/Novaldex on hand but unsure when/how to use it properly.

I would sincerely appreciate someone with the knowledge/experience to tell me how I should best finish my pct using what I have on hand (hcg, adex, clomid, nolva). Please be as descriptive as possible in terms of frequency/dosages.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Teutonic]

Since you ran deca a good rule of thumb is 3 week s after last pin do your pct drug s for 28 day s
Chlomid 50 mg e d
Nolv 40 mg e d

Stop mega dosing the hcg.....geeeez.
125-250 on cycle e 3 -4 day s.
I ll go out on a limb and say do same for pct period.
Stop with the anti e . Now.

Maybe my attempt will garner other s to un screw you Sir. I do not do pct ever. Trt for me.

 

[tbonexl]

A 5 month cycle with multiple compounds and your now asking about pct? 5 months is a long time to go into something blind. Even after starting a new relationship with a girl, after 5 months you kinda know where you stand.

This is by far not a typical especially not a first cycle. Ai and hcg should've been used during your cycle. You continue hcg and ai up to pct. Pct only consists of nolvadex and clomid. Run clomid at 50mgs per day and nolvadex at 40mgs per day. Normally a pct only lasts 4 weeks. In your case, you may want to go 6-8 weeks. You've been shut down for over 5 months. Chances of recovering your natural test production have greatly reduced. Give the ology faq's thread a read and the stickys on pct too.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Stop mega dosing the hcg.....geeeez.
.

You know I luv ya bro, but just my 2 cents here. High dosing the HCG is absolutely needed after a Deca cycle IMO. Have tried to help many recover from Deca and Tren even after years of abuse. Some success and some failures.

The only way to get it to work is with high dosages of HCG for longer durations, if you don't do this basically what happens is the clomid and nolva masks the failure and then when SERM's are discontinued the HPTA will fail.

Ive seen it hundreds of times.

Hope this helps.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

tbonexl if you are not blasting your HCG before your SERMS after a really suppressive cycle recovery won't happen. Just trying to help.

 

[Brando1289]

tbonexl if you are not blasting your HCG before your SERMS after a really suppressive cycle recovery won't happen. Just trying to help.

Can you please give me your opinion on how I should finish my pct given the cycle I did and the dosages of hcg and arimidex that I've taken thus far over the last ~3 weeks. I'm just not sure when to stop the hcg and/or arimidex and when to implement clomid/nolva. I would really appreciate it.

 

[blakey]

tbonexl if you are not blasting your HCG before your SERMS after a really suppressive cycle recovery won't happen. Just trying to help.

Recovery wont happen? ?? Common now that's a hefty statement to make you sound like you have a bit of experience in this field but that is just rubbish mate i have used 19nors myself with no hcg and didn't have a problem with pct and my natty test returning to is baseline

I've seen 18 year old kids running tren only cycles and coming good after granted they didn't get bloods and i wasn't doing the firmness check by hand but from there accounts they were fine the fellas returned to there normal size
Still able to get and maintain an erection so all good signs that even if not 100percent they were coming back

Hcg has it'splace yes is it needed in every cycle well thats up to the individual ive never used it and never had issues

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Nope. Like I said in another thread your probably testing while on the SERMS. So it masks the failure. If you test two months after coming off everything you will be in the tank again.

Size is not a determining factor in HPTA function, the leydig cells only make up 10% of the testes.

So this is the problem, everyone goes around saying "oh yea you will recover fine" but the truth is they never ran bloods at the proper time to see if they really recovered.

Without HCG there is no PCT.

 

[scorob777]

Can you please give me your opinion on how I should finish my pct given the cycle I did and the dosages of hcg and arimidex that I've taken thus far over the last ~3 weeks. I'm just not sure when to stop the hcg and/or arimidex and when to implement clomid/nolva. I would really appreciate it.

Brando, my 2 cents is you should wait until your test injections bleed down to less than you make naturally before you start the clomid & nolva. With a dose of 1,200 mg/wk test e/cyp blend you'll need four half lives (1200-600, 600-300, 300-150, 150-75) with roughly 11 days for the blend, i.e. 44 days. Since you are 21 days into it now, wait another three weeks then use the clomid / nolva

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Then what happens is people don't wait long enough to go to the next cycle. Then they just run it again. So its really like one big cycle that you never come off of.

These compounds stay in your system far longer than said on the boards. So people say "I feel good I am recovered", when the truth is they never really let all the androgens get out of their system to even know if they recovered.

I don't "say things to make it sound like I know what I am talking about". When I post its from experience working with men and IMT's physicians that is validated with lab work taken at the proper time.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Brando, my 2 cents is you should wait until your test injections bleed down to less than you make naturally before you start the clomid & nolva. With a dose of 1,200 mg/wk test e/cyp blend you'll need four half lives (1200-600, 600-300, 300-150, 150-75) with roughly 11 days for the blend, i.e. 44 days. Since you are 21 days into it now, wait another three weeks then use the clomid / nolva

^^^^^^ EXACTLY. But I would run HCG while waiting that 44 days.

 

[Brando1289]

^^^^^^ EXACTLY. But I would run HCG while waiting that 44 days.

First off - I really appreciate the advice here from everyone.

Few questions:

1. Continuing on the HCG for the full 44 days - is my dosage correct at 1,000 IU every 3 days or should I modify this in any way?
2. Should I continue taking the Arimidex at 0.5 mg every 2 days? If so, when do I stop taking the Arimidex?
3. After the 44 days are up - I am stopping HCG altogether and doing the Chlomid at 50 mg everyday and Nolv at 40 mg everyday, right?

Thanks again

 

[scorob777]

For HCG 1,000 every 3 days sounds funky. Wouldn't it be better to do something like 250 per day?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

250 IU doesn't really do anything at all and its a major waste of time and money.

The idea is to stimulate the testes to get them producing maximal amounts of testosterone.

1k isn't even a lot, nothing wrong with doing 2k QOD

HCG vials were never intended to be used for multi dose. So thats why they come in 1500, 2500 and 5000 IU vials. Cause thats the dosage that was used.

HCG desensitization is a total myth. There are so many on the boards I could spend a year trying to debunk them all. They spread like wildfire though.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Here is a study with 1500 IU 3 times per week, after 23 months TT levels remained in normal range throughout the entire 23 months. Thats a LONG time.

Don't get confused by the end statement where they talk about TT response being markedly reduced, this is simply noting the refractory period induced by HCG. Basically HCG stimulates response and then the testes go dormant for 72 hours and then secrete another smaller pulse. Its not permanent desensitization.

D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongiol A, Gulizia S. Testicular Responsiveness to Chronic Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Administration in Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1982;55(1):76-80.

Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17{beta}-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17{alpha}-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17{alpha}-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.

Here is a study done with 1500IU once per week, as noted TT response continued to climb over the course of a year. So basically it just took longer to achieve the goal.

Balducci R, Toscano V, Casilli D, Maroder M, Sciarra F, Boscherini B. Testicular responsiveness following chronic administration of hCG (1500 IU every six days) in untreated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Horm Metab Res 1987;19(5):216-21.

The observation that the testosterone (T) response to a single intramuscular injection of hCG is prolonged suggests that currently used regimens (2-3 injections per week) to stimulate endogenous androgen secretion in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) patients have to be reassessed. Moreover, during the last few years, Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization has been found after massive doses of hCG. The aim of the present investigation, carried out in 6 HH patients who showed no signs of puberty, was to study the effect of 1500 IU hCG administered every six days over a period of one year to induce the onset of pubertal development. To evaluate the kinetics of the response of T, 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 alpha-OHP) and 17 beta-oestradiol (E2), blood samples were taken basally and 1, 2, 4 and 6 days after drug injection. This dynamic study was performed after the first injection and after the 4th and 12th month of treatment. During this one year time period, a progressive increase in testicular size was observed. Comparing plasma T levels (mean +/- SE) before the first injection (11.2 +/- 4.7 ng/dl) with the corresponding values at the 4th (38.7 +/- 10.5 ng/dl) and 12th months (99.5 +/- 19.9 ng/dl) of therapy, a progressive and significant increase was observed. T reached a maximum elevation 58 hours after hCG injection at the 4th month (198.3 +/- 42 ng/dl; P less than 0.01) and at the 12th month (415.6 +/- 62.6 ng/dl; P less than 0.05), whereas it remained unchanged following the first hCG injection.

 

[scorob777]

So what do you recommend while on cycle?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Just 500IU 2-3 times per week. Just enough to keep them alive. When your TT drops below 400 ng/dl HCG stimulates the pituitary not just the testes. Thats why the blast is important.

During is just enough to keep them from going dormant, its not important to have them pumping a lot of testosterone.

You could even do 750 IU once per week.

 

[blakey]

Nope. Like I said in another thread your probably testing while on the SERMS. So it masks the failure. If you test two months after coming off everything you will be in the tank again.

Size is not a determining factor in HPTA function, the leydig cells only make up 10% of the testes.

So this is the problem, everyone goes around saying "oh yea you will recover fine" but the truth is they never ran bloods at the proper time to see if they really recovered.

Without HCG there is no PCT.

Mmmm well theres not to much i can say about that
Ive only ever ran 2 bloods the whole time ive been on aas 1 was before my first cycle to get my baseline and that was drawn at lunch time so those results were probably a bit off anyway as its my understanding that bloods need to be done first thing in the morning? And the other was 4 weeks after pct from a cycle of ment (19nor) and it was pretty close to were i was at the first draw .
Id love to be able to get more done but unfortunately im in Australia and its no were near as easy and cheap to get them done overhere compared to you guys inthe states

 

[scorob777]

Just 500IU 2-3 times per week. Just enough to keep them alive. When your TT drops below 400 ng/dl HCG stimulates the pituitary not just the testes. Thats why the blast is important.

During is just enough to keep them from going dormant, its not important to have them pumping a lot of testosterone.

You could even do 750 IU once per week.

Thanks for this advice, I had been doing 250 twice per week - probably will change to 750 once per week. Important to keep the pituitary going as it is also involved in growth hormone.

 

[Brando1289]

Just 500IU 2-3 times per week. Just enough to keep them alive. When your TT drops below 400 ng/dl HCG stimulates the pituitary not just the testes. Thats why the blast is important.

During is just enough to keep them from going dormant, its not important to have them pumping a lot of testosterone.

You could even do 750 IU once per week.

Are you - or anyone able to clarify a few last things for me please/thanks:

1. Continuing on the HCG for the full 44 days - is my dosage correct at 1,000 IU every 3 days or should I modify this in any way? Keep in mind I didn't take any HCG during my cycle. I would like to take the minimum HCG required - I don't want to take anymore than I have to.

2. Should I continue taking the Arimidex at 0.5 mg every 2 days? If so, when do I stop taking the Arimidex - once I'm done the HCG at 44 days?

3. After the 44 days are up - I am stopping HCG (and possible arimidex) altogether and doing the Chlomid at 50 mg everyday and Nolva at 40 mg everyday, right? How long do I take the Clomid/Nolva for?

Thanks again