End of 1st Test-Only cycle approaching. Staying on Test... Please Help Me.

[AudioMaker]

Hey everyone,

I posted this in the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum, but I'd like to hear from the guys who frequent the Anabolic forum.

Here is my post from the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum (so I don't have to retype where I'm at:

******
Hi All,

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post here....thanks for having me!

I've signed on to a couple other forums, and googled my brains out for month, but I'm still feeling like i have some unanswered questions. If you can help me, I'd sure appreciate it, and please forgive me for not searching the forums for the answers because my brain is just fried on trying to find the answers that pertain to me.

First, my stat's...

I'm 45 years old.
I'm 5' 10" tall
I weigh about 240lbs right now with a stocky build (thick rib cage, bones, shorter legs...etc)
I have a "4 pack" at 200lbs, I look "average" at 220lbs, and I'm an old fat blob at 240lbs.
My body normally gains muscle fast when I lift heavy, although it's been a few years since I hit the gym hard. I have a good amount of muscle and am very strong, but look "soft" at best right now.
I am prone to weight gain (fat) unless I'm actually on a diet to control this.
I have no history of erectile disfunction, or baldness.
I tried a self prescribed low-dose GH therapy for 5 months until i ran out of money last year, otherwise I am new to hormone adjustments.

*****

Ok, now where I'm at...

Some friends of mine locally are mild bodybuilders, and I've received:

8X 250mg/ml of test'-E
8X 200mg/ml of deca

******
My goal is to transform my body from this soft 45 year old, to a leaner but not overly sized harder body. With my build, it doesn't take much muscle gain to look "big".
I also want to feel younger, and have the benefits of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at the same time.

I have started a 250mg/week of test-E (125mg Mon/Thurs), and I have been on this for 5 weeks while doing a "at home" warmup getting ready for the gym (sucks when you have to work out just to get into the shape to work out in public).

Since week two of 250mg of test-E, my libido is ridiculous, and while I can see it would be fun and make one feel younger, my girlfriend is suffering libido problems from a hormone laced IUD, so needing to "relieve myself" 3 times a day when my girlfriend is on a schedule closer to 3X a month is...well... you get it.

As you can calculate, at the current dose of test', I have about 5 more weeks to get through the first bottle.

I figure 5 more weeks of home workout and I'll be ready for the gym, so the timing works out to start the deca at that point (one bottle of test down).

At that point, I plan to add the deca to the test at 200mg/week (1ml) to make it simple. That will end up at 1ml of test-E per week, and 1ml of deca per week, or put another way.... 1 pin of a 50/50 mix twice a week that results in a 250mg test/200mg deca stack.

******
Now here's my questions...

First, I think I'm likely to stay on the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) part of this routine indefinitely.

What I'm not understanding is if I could (or should) stay on the deca indefinitely, or cycle it. I don't know what risks I'd be looking at or benefits.
On the other hand, if I were to stay on the test', but cycle the deca, I don't know how to cycle it and what sort of post cycle therapy (pct) I'd be looking at while staying on test'?

I'm trying to keep this simple. Build up, get lean, and stay that way. I want to look like I go to the gym a lot, but not like I'm obsessed.
I'd prefer to keep the amount of sup's and hormone combinations to a minimum so I can stick with it (I'm not one of these guys that can take 10 different things at 3 different times....etc.)

I'm also wondering if the deca will bring my libido back into a realistic range, and what will happen if I cycle it? I mean... can I expect every time I come off that I'm *too* horny again?

What about adding something like Erase Pro to the mix, or... to the test only, when I'm off deca?

I am concerned about this libido meaning I have too much estrogen, and I think that my body type and history might make me a gyno candidate even though I've never had it (I do have a bit of moobs, but I'm overweight at the moment).

So should I just stay on both...or all 3?

By the way, I can hit the gym and lift heavy about 2X a week, and do home gym (light weights, total gym, pushups, P90X, treadmill..etc.) about another 2X per week.

Any advice would really be appreciated.

******** end of paste.

Since posted that, I've been all over the net looking for answers. Through that journey, I'm now wondering if I should be trading out the Deca for EQ? Ultimately I'm looking to get lean since growing muscle is never a problem for me, but getting lean is. As I've stated above, I plan to stay on Test-E indefinitely. I might do an "off vs on" dosage change but I'll be staying on it. Whether it's Deca or EQ (or whatever ends up being the best), I'd prefer something mild that I can stay on as long as possible. My workouts are consistent, but not "hard" since I'm really looking at a this whole thing like a lifestyle change more than a focused cycle. Don't get me wrong, I want to grow, but over time is OK with me, with longer lasting results. Being 45, it's now harder to grow and harder to get lean than it was 10 years ago and I'm needing some help (chemical) to make my results positive enough to keep me working at it.

The end of my test-only cycle is coming up (even though I don't consider something I'll be on for at least a couple years a "cycle"), and i think now would be a good time to decide what I should add to it.

Right now, I'm thinking:

250mg of Test-E/week (staying on... could up the dose for cycling)
200mg of Deca/week (or Equipoise)....not sure on the cycling time.
1 Erase Pro ED
(hope to add 20iu/week of GH by July)

My body is handling the test fine at this point (about 6 weeks now). I'm actually liking the libido and would like to keep it, as well as well-being feeling. Still holding fat (including chest). Had a couple emotional moments watching movies by myself, but I'm also mid breakup with my gf of 4 years so I guess I'm prone. I think it would be worse if not for the test honestly.

I think that's about as honest and telling about myself as I can be without any specific questions.

The clock is ticking before I just go ahead and start taking the Test/Deca/Erase stack and I've honestly done as much research as I can to get to this point.

Thoughts?
Many Thanks

Edited to add: Of course even though I'm ultimately looking for a long term consistent solution, I wouldn't mind a jumpstart to looking pretty good since that's going to help with being single after this impending breakup.

 

[DipKing]

First off, have you been to the doctor? At your age and what you've said about your overall health, I'd be concerned with adverse health effects, blood pressure being one of them. It's a well-known fact steroids cause the flame to burn brighter, but shorter. Secondly, I don't think steroids are for you if you just want to look like you hit the gym sometimes. This becomes a lifestyle, career builder for most. If I were you I'd just hit the gym routinely and get your diet in check.

 

[halfwit]

Along the lines of the previous poster, why haven't you gone to the doctor? At 45 you should have had a hormone panel done by now just to see how you're doing. Based on what you've written:

A) You aren't taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Erase is NOT an aromatase inhibitor - you're adding more testosterone to your body, which in turn will create more estrogen. This is very likely why you're feeling emotional, and can lead to a TON of problems if not managed correctly. From boobies to prostate flareups, high estrogen is bad news. This is also part of the "fat" you're seeing - it's bloat from water retention being caused by estrogen.

B) If you're feeling better on a moderate dose of testosterone, you were probably low to begin with. The problem now is that you will NEVER know exactly what you were at as you didn't (or at least you didn't mention) having blood work prior to starting this adventure. This can be a problem for you as your supplier may eventually run out or you may develop other issues as mentioned by DipKing such as elevated blood pressure/high RBC (which leads to high bp)/et cetera. A doctor would require you to stop your self-administered testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) so they could get a baseline test, but as your LH and FSH are now suppressed, it's going to be near impossible to determine without a post cycle therapy (pct) (hopefully) where you are naturally. Then it could take months for your body to recuperate and present accurate results, all the while you're feeling like crap.

C) I'd skip the deca and EQ until you have an idea what is going on with your body. If you're serious about making this a lifetime change, you need to start from the ground up and work from there. Tossing in other compounds could spell disaster for you until you know how you react to testosterone (6 weeks isn't enough time to fully understand how your body is reacting) and what your long-term plans are. Once you have all that nailed down, then you might be ready to add onto your base of testosterone. It's going to really suck, but I strongly urge you take a long hard look at B before you move onto more AAS.

D) Sorry to hear about the girlfriend. If it's not too late, see if she can get off that hormonal crap - my wife had some SERIOUS libido issues from depo and mirena which are both still commonly prescribed in the US. It got to the point where she didn't care about ANYTHING since those drugs completely shut down her estrogen and testosterone producing capabilities - making her a zombie. Six months after getting on a copper IUD, things were MUCH better for her, and we were able to resume our relationship in a healthy manner. I'm not blaming whatever issues your relationship is having on this, but I can say that when a man has low testosterone, and his wife has NO sex hormones - shit can get rocky. Just some food for thought.

My .02c

 

[AudioMaker]

Along the lines of the previous poster, why haven't you gone to the doctor? At 45 you should have had a hormone panel done by now just to see how you're doing. Based on what you've written:

A) You aren't taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Erase is NOT an aromatase inhibitor - you're adding more testosterone to your body, which in turn will create more estrogen. This is very likely why you're feeling emotional, and can lead to a TON of problems if not managed correctly. From boobies to prostate flareups, high estrogen is bad news. This is also part of the "fat" you're seeing - it's bloat from water retention being caused by estrogen.

B) If you're feeling better on a moderate dose of testosterone, you were probably low to begin with. The problem now is that you will NEVER know exactly what you were at as you didn't (or at least you didn't mention) having blood work prior to starting this adventure. This can be a problem for you as your supplier may eventually run out or you may develop other issues as mentioned by DipKing such as elevated blood pressure/high RBC (which leads to high bp)/et cetera. A doctor would require you to stop your self-administered testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) so they could get a baseline test, but as your LH and FSH are now suppressed, it's going to be near impossible to determine without a post cycle therapy (pct) (hopefully) where you are naturally. Then it could take months for your body to recuperate and present accurate results, all the while you're feeling like crap.

C) I'd skip the deca and EQ until you have an idea what is going on with your body. If you're serious about making this a lifetime change, you need to start from the ground up and work from there. Tossing in other compounds could spell disaster for you until you know how you react to testosterone (6 weeks isn't enough time to fully understand how your body is reacting) and what your long-term plans are. Once you have all that nailed down, then you might be ready to add onto your base of testosterone. It's going to really suck, but I strongly urge you take a long hard look at B before you move onto more AAS.

D) Sorry to hear about the girlfriend. If it's not too late, see if she can get off that hormonal crap - my wife had some SERIOUS libido issues from depo and mirena which are both still commonly prescribed in the US. It got to the point where she didn't care about ANYTHING since those drugs completely shut down her estrogen and testosterone producing capabilities - making her a zombie. Six months after getting on a copper IUD, things were MUCH better for her, and we were able to resume our relationship in a healthy manner. I'm not blaming whatever issues your relationship is having on this, but I can say that when a man has low testosterone, and his wife has NO sex hormones - shit can get rocky. Just some food for thought.

My .02c

Thanks guys.

First, No... I haven't been to the DR. I know it makes sense to do so....for at least blood work.

On the other hand, I have friends who are on hormones who have had doctors totally f**k them up, and I can't say that my girlfriend's Dr. is losing any sleep over the fact that her bc is killing our relationship (it a big part...you were right halfwit).

Ultimately having a baseline would be cool, but even when prescribed, it's going to be adjusted based on results (energy, libido, gyno, mood, water retention...etc..etc).

I live in a small town where people drive 4 hours to a real city because of the damage the Dr's do around here (really, I've seen it over and over again).

So, I'm not justifying it, or advocating it, but I have to say that I have just about as much faith in the group consensus of a bunch of people actually taking these compounds, as I would in any local non-specialist endo'.

I'm sure I wouldn't be the first guy around who went "on" without a prescription... not saying it's the right thing to do... but at least I'm being honest about it.

....

That said, I feel fine. I had no abnormal age related issues prior to going on self prescribed testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). In 45 years I've only had ED once and that was several drinks in. As it stands, I just know by body and it feels normal except that I have a high libido, I'm gaining muscle like I was 35, and I'm losing weight like I was 35. The test at this dosage isn't making me aggressive, or giving me acne..etc. I just feel better (even while going through a breakup).

The fat may indeed be to estrogen related water retention. I agree that might be the case even though I've gotten a similar effect working out with no AAS as my body "pushes" the fat outward as my muscles swell, and also it (the fat) seems to become less densely "packed" when I'm losing weight...if that makes sense? Being more loose, it feels more "jiggly". I need to get a pic up for you guys soon so you can see that I'm not fat, I'm just fat compared to someone who's paying closer attention to their body.


Still, I am weight training...as I have done natty and on GH in the past and I'd like an extra boost and would like to get bigger than I've been in the past...just not huge. I mentioned that because sometimes you get responses on the net that are from guys curling refrigerators and are super deep into it. Because that deeper than I can go, I wanted to specify that I just want to be "built", not a "monster" (nor could I be).

I still have about another month to be test-only. I'll see what's available for me to get blood work around here before then. I agree knowing a baseline is great, but knowing where I'm at even "on" would be good. I'll also get my blood pressure checked although it was normal a year ago.

Anyway... so Erase isn't an AI? This is the type of thing that confuses newbies like myself. I read about it and half the guys using it are saying it dries them out too much. Isn't that due to blocking estrogen? I mean, does it matter *how* it's blocked? I could use some advice on this. I chose that compound because I really didn't want to add a 3rd injectable.

... and halfwit... Thanks for the insight on your experience with Mirena. I feel less alone (I'll cry later...kidding). My GF gained 40lbs in 6 months after getting it. She had a stunning (really) body before that and I think even without the hormones, that half of her sex drive was being able to show off that body. Sadly, I think psychologically, that she feels that I don't turn her on anymore and has lost interest in me. That, leads to neglect, which is what I've been experiencing for close to two years now.

Peace.

 

[halfwit]

I agree that many doctors just aren't up to date on current hormone therapy for men. You can pretty much buy estrogen over the counter for menopausal women or they can have testosterone prescribed without any questions asked. If we go to the doctor without having done some serious homework, it's a bottle of anti-depressants and a foot to the butt. On the other hand, I can't stress enough how angry I am when it comes to how little research has gone into these hormone birth control methods. Depo-provera which has been BANNED in several countries due to it causing serious PERMANENT problems for women is still recommended by doctors and even though the internet is full of angry females that have lost hair/libido/the ability to have children permanently, it is still prescribed. They just had to put an additional disclaimer in the pamphlet that comes with the drug.

Mirena is even worse in that they claim to be a safe alternative to these hormones (they're actually steroids) yet they can cause a complete shut down of the female gonads much akin to how AAS can cause a man to shut down. Complaining to a doctor in that case usually leads to a vitamin D check or an anti-depressant prescription even though the root cause is the crap that they prescribed in the first place! I was honestly in a very similar situation as you are; my wife woke up one day and blankly said that she was just no longer in love with me and wasn't attracted to me - without any emotion. I spent the next two weeks looking into why my spouse of 16 years would suddenly make such a statement, leading me to find out about her birth control.

The good news is that we were lucky, and her hormone levels had finally come back to normal after about six months of being off that crap. Oddly, that was what led me to look into my hormone levels since I was apparently being hyper-critical of almost everything she would do, and being super moody without any just cause. Turns out I was estrogen dominant as my test levels had been on the ultra-low side for some time, and my estrogen had taken over as it was 3/4 of my hormone ratio. I am thankful to this day that we were able to find out what the underlying problems were biologically, so we could tackle our relationship problems as rational people, not two malfunctioning beings angrily blaming each other for things that simply were not there. Hopefully, you guys can (if it is worth it to you) figure this stuff out and make things right as rain with some work and time. Hormones are powerful chemicals, I can attest to that wholeheartedly.

On the lighter side: Erase is an over the counter natural estrogen "cutting" agent. It may work for guys that are on natural stacks of supplements, but it will not prevent the conversion of testosterone to estrogen which your body does in an attempt to create what it thinks is homeostasis. I've read that Erase can aid with cortisol levels, but in all honesty - I put little faith in products that make these claims and are still over the counter. You will need an aromatase inhibitor such as arimidex (anastrozole) or aromasin (exemestane) to actually block this from happening. These can be purchased from research chemical providers such as Rui (board sponsor) for a reasonable price. Best of all, I KNOW they work.

I would also recommend you donate blood every chance you get if you plan on staying on AAS as your body will now start to create more red blood cells, which can make your blood "thicker". As your RBC count elevates, your blood pressure can increase - causing problems down the road. If a doctor sees these at high levels from a blood test, they'll likely prescribe "therapeutic blood draws" which is exactly the same thing as donating blood for FREE at the Red Cross. I see donating as a win/win as you are not only being a good samaritan, but you save yourself from having high hematocrit/RBC numbers.

Jeez, sorry for the novel. I hadn't planned on typing so much, but hopefully this helps.

 

[AudioMaker]

I agree that many doctors just aren't up to date on current hormone therapy for men. You can pretty much buy estrogen over the counter for menopausal women or they can have testosterone prescribed without any questions asked. If we go to the doctor without having done some serious homework, it's a bottle of anti-depressants and a foot to the butt. On the other hand, I can't stress enough how angry I am when it comes to how little research has gone into these hormone birth control methods. Depo-provera which has been BANNED in several countries due to it causing serious PERMANENT problems for women is still recommended by doctors and even though the internet is full of angry females that have lost hair/libido/the ability to have children permanently, it is still prescribed. They just had to put an additional disclaimer in the pamphlet that comes with the drug.

Mirena is even worse in that they claim to be a safe alternative to these hormones (they're actually steroids) yet they can cause a complete shut down of the female gonads much akin to how AAS can cause a man to shut down. Complaining to a doctor in that case usually leads to a vitamin D check or an anti-depressant prescription even though the root cause is the crap that they prescribed in the first place! I was honestly in a very similar situation as you are; my wife woke up one day and blankly said that she was just no longer in love with me and wasn't attracted to me - without any emotion. I spent the next two weeks looking into why my spouse of 16 years would suddenly make such a statement, leading me to find out about her birth control.

The good news is that we were lucky, and her hormone levels had finally come back to normal after about six months of being off that crap. Oddly, that was what led me to look into my hormone levels since I was apparently being hyper-critical of almost everything she would do, and being super moody without any just cause. Turns out I was estrogen dominant as my test levels had been on the ultra-low side for some time, and my estrogen had taken over as it was 3/4 of my hormone ratio. I am thankful to this day that we were able to find out what the underlying problems were biologically, so we could tackle our relationship problems as rational people, not two malfunctioning beings angrily blaming each other for things that simply were not there. Hopefully, you guys can (if it is worth it to you) figure this stuff out and make things right as rain with some work and time. Hormones are powerful chemicals, I can attest to that wholeheartedly.

On the lighter side: Erase is an over the counter natural estrogen "cutting" agent. It may work for guys that are on natural stacks of supplements, but it will not prevent the conversion of testosterone to estrogen which your body does in an attempt to create what it thinks is homeostasis. I've read that Erase can aid with cortisol levels, but in all honesty - I put little faith in products that make these claims and are still over the counter. You will need an aromatase inhibitor such as arimidex (anastrozole) or aromasin (exemestane) to actually block this from happening. These can be purchased from research chemical providers such as Rui (board sponsor) for a reasonable price. Best of all, I KNOW they work.

I would also recommend you donate blood every chance you get if you plan on staying on AAS as your body will now start to create more red blood cells, which can make your blood "thicker". As your RBC count elevates, your blood pressure can increase - causing problems down the road. If a doctor sees these at high levels from a blood test, they'll likely prescribe "therapeutic blood draws" which is exactly the same thing as donating blood for FREE at the Red Cross. I see donating as a win/win as you are not only being a good samaritan, but you save yourself from having high hematocrit/RBC numbers.

Jeez, sorry for the novel. I hadn't planned on typing so much, but hopefully this helps.

Actually it helps a lot, thanks!

I'm just stoked that I accidentally found someone I could talk to about both by hormones AND my girlfriend's in the same post. Normally I would refrain from mixing a thread like this, but some guy is going to read this someday...wanting to bulk up... while his spouse is on the way to the Dr to get one of these horrific things installed. For that, I'm happy to tangent.

For me, I think it's too late. You are a lucky man that your woman can think past how she feels and work things out. Mine cannot. What I left out was that my woman had really bad cramps and period symptoms prior to going on Mirena.... like curl up in a ball and cry for 3 days pain. She was also very hostile towards me (well...and everything). That by itself was tearing us apart. In fact, I had a good 2 weeks of the month that I could expect to be consistently punished, or alone. This was one of the reasons Mirena was chosen, and it worked. She has very little cramps and near non-existant periods.
So you see the problem right? If she were to come off of it to regain "interest", she'd tear me to shreds for every stab of pain that would return because now *I'm* responsible. Considering where we are now, that would only change the violence level of the end, but not the ending itself.
In any case...guys... be wary of this stuff.

<commercial break>

...now back to MY hormones...

I have to say that I wish the technology was simpler. While I'm quite a bit younger, my new heros are Dr. Jeff Life (cenogenics), and Dr Crisler (ATM). Both these guys look fantastic for their age (hormone assisted).
I'm not quite that old and I think I can still do some AAS in addition, plus the frames of these Dr's are small.
You know, there's the skinny little guy looking to put on some muscle, and there's the muscular guy where it's hidden under fat. I think the second guy has a harder time looking good, and that's me.

One thing though, if you have a thick frame, you pretty much have to embrace the idea of looking more bodybuilder than gymnast. Without trying to sound silly, I just want to look *sexy*, and on my frame that's going to be bigger. That's why I'm going this route at this time in my life. I don't have youth, my hair is starting to grey, and something has to stand out beyond a "fit" body and charming personality...right?

So, I've been given some deca and test....
The amateur bodybuilders in my area run that without Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (group sample =4)

They also cycle, mostly for budgetary reasons. Standard barnyard drill... shoot 'em both for 10-12, then stay on test for a couple weeks.
It seems to work for them.

I, however am older and if I didn't need testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) right now, I would probably need it in 5 years (plus my 2 heroes do it).
So, there becomes this crossover program... Combined testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and Bodybuilding (but 45 year old bodybuilding).

After much reading, I came to a dose of Test' that was high testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), low BB'ing, easy to measure, and within my budget. Of course I can adjust later as I tune into what my body is needing.
When I was given the Deca, I knew a lot less than I do now from endless reading. Sure, I want to jumpstart and get big before next summer, but there is a long term goal that once i get built up, that I'll just maintain.

This leads me to the questions I have. Can you start test, then add Deca, then go off the Deca only? I'm sure the answer is "yes", but what can I expect?
Since I'm not "cycling" my workouts and simply plan to hit the gym 2-3 times a week indefinitely, I'm thinking from what I've read, that EQ might be a lower side effect AS that I could run *longer* and maybe just run a cycle each winter.
If I could, my preference would be a low dosage of something I could combine with test and stay on it year round...for simplicity. I just want every workout to count and produce results (even if smaller), not just the "on cycle" ones.
When I say *cycling* my workouts, I mean how guys who go "on" and go nuts at the gym, then kinda slow or stop. I won't go nuts, but I won't be stopping either.

I was hoping that with the low dosages I'm considering, that Erase would be enough of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to prevent side's, plus if the cortisol lowering isn't just hype, that would be great because I know mine is above average.
It appears from what you are saying that it might not be, and like everyone, I don't want tits so I'll order some Arimex, but I hope there's an oral form because I like GH and by the time I add it, it will be just too many pins.

 

[halfwit]

Actually it helps a lot, thanks!

I'm just stoked that I accidentally found someone I could talk to about both by hormones AND my girlfriend's in the same post. Normally I would refrain from mixing a thread like this, but some guy is going to read this someday...wanting to bulk up... while his spouse is on the way to the Dr to get one of these horrific things installed. For that, I'm happy to tangent.

For me, I think it's too late. You are a lucky man that your woman can think past how she feels and work things out. Mine cannot. What I left out was that my woman had really bad cramps and period symptoms prior to going on Mirena.... like curl up in a ball and cry for 3 days pain. She was also very hostile towards me (well...and everything). That by itself was tearing us apart. In fact, I had a good 2 weeks of the month that I could expect to be consistently punished, or alone. This was one of the reasons Mirena was chosen, and it worked. She has very little cramps and near non-existant periods.
So you see the problem right? If she were to come off of it to regain "interest", she'd tear me to shreds for every stab of pain that would return because now *I'm* responsible. Considering where we are now, that would only change the violence level of the end, but not the ending itself.
In any case...guys... be wary of this stuff.

<commercial break>

That sucks man. I don't normally like to talk about personal life, but I had to pipe in on this as it's just too close to home for me. My heart goes out to you as it's never easy to deal with what you're going through.

...now back to MY hormones...

I have to say that I wish the technology was simpler. While I'm quite a bit younger, my new heros are Dr. Jeff Life (cenogenics), and Dr Crisler (ATM). Both these guys look fantastic for their age (hormone assisted).
I'm not quite that old and I think I can still do some AAS in addition, plus the frames of these Dr's are small.
You know, there's the skinny little guy looking to put on some muscle, and there's the muscular guy where it's hidden under fat. I think the second guy has a harder time looking good, and that's me.

One thing though, if you have a thick frame, you pretty much have to embrace the idea of looking more bodybuilder than gymnast. Without trying to sound silly, I just want to look *sexy*, and on my frame that's going to be bigger. That's why I'm going this route at this time in my life. I don't have youth, my hair is starting to grey, and something has to stand out beyond a "fit" body and charming personality...right?

Honestly, I would bet that there are a lot of us in their late 30's mid 40's finding AAS for the first time, or revisiting it after a long break from it. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking more like a bodybuilder than a gymnast. Hell, most guys I knew that were gymnasts were some ripped bastards - they were using AAS too, as gymnastics requires a TON of strength and endurance. Hell, it's kind of fun when I go to my daughter's daycare and have all the young Mommy's sneaking glances, I find it flattering and I don't have that goofy "fitness model" look. Granted, being 6'7" gets me glances either way.

So, I've been given some deca and test....
The amateur bodybuilders in my area run that without Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (group sample =4)

They also cycle, mostly for budgetary reasons. Standard barnyard drill... shoot 'em both for 10-12, then stay on test for a couple weeks.
It seems to work for them.

Please read the sticky about post cycle therapy (pct)/AI. While the post cycle therapy (pct) portion doesn't apply to someone that is staying on test (TRT), there's some really good explanations and science behind why an AI/post cycle therapy (pct) is required. I've met many big boys in the gym that were doing oral only cycles or had to do a "nolva cleanse" as they developed gyno from a lack of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I know that back in the 80's and 90's there wasn't nearly the wealth of information we have now, but some of these guys need to catch up to the times. You don't have to grow bitch tits anymore, we can still use AAS and be safe about it!

I, however am older and if I didn't need testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) right now, I would probably need it in 5 years (plus my 2 heroes do it).
So, there becomes this crossover program... Combined testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and Bodybuilding (but 45 year old bodybuilding).

After much reading, I came to a dose of Test' that was high testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), low BB'ing, easy to measure, and within my budget. Of course I can adjust later as I tune into what my body is needing.
When I was given the Deca, I knew a lot less than I do now from endless reading. Sure, I want to jumpstart and get big before next summer, but there is a long term goal that once i get built up, that I'll just maintain.

This leads me to the questions I have. Can you start test, then add Deca, then go off the Deca only? I'm sure the answer is "yes", but what can I expect?
Since I'm not "cycling" my workouts and simply plan to hit the gym 2-3 times a week indefinitely, I'm thinking from what I've read, that EQ might be a lower side effect AS that I could run *longer* and maybe just run a cycle each winter.
If I could, my preference would be a low dosage of something I could combine with test and stay on it year round...for simplicity. I just want every workout to count and produce results (even if smaller), not just the "on cycle" ones.
When I say *cycling* my workouts, I mean how guys who go "on" and go nuts at the gym, then kinda slow or stop. I won't go nuts, but I won't be stopping either.

I was hoping that with the low dosages I'm considering, that Erase would be enough of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to prevent side's, plus if the cortisol lowering isn't just hype, that would be great because I know mine is above average.
It appears from what you are saying that it might not be, and like everyone, I don't want tits so I'll order some Arimex, but I hope there's an oral form because I like GH and by the time I add it, it will be just too many pins.

For starters, yes - arimidex is an oral suspension or a pill. I prefer rui's liquidex (board sponsor) as it's much easier to adjust doses on the fly based on how your body is doing. I would start at something like .25mg EOD or E3D and adjust accordingly. You know you're not using enough if your nipples get itchy/sore and you start to see some bloat in your face/feet/hands. If your joints hurt and you discover problems maintaining an erection/getting one - you went too high.

You do NOT want to do deca on it's own as it is suppressive and will shut down your natural testosterone. ALWAYS use test as a base, and work from there. I would still recommend you run a test only blast first, upping from your TRT-ish dose to 500-600mg/wk for 12 weeks. Once you know how your body reacts to the test, you can then incorporate the deca. Keeping the Erase for cortisol is entirely up to you as there are many that swear by it.

I think that covers everything.

 

[AudioMaker]

You do NOT want to do deca on it's own as it is suppressive and will shut down your natural testosterone. ALWAYS use test as a base, and work from there. I would still recommend you run a test only blast first, upping from your TRT-ish dose to 500-600mg/wk for 12 weeks. Once you know how your body reacts to the test, you can then incorporate the deca. Keeping the Erase for cortisol is entirely up to you as there are many that swear by it.

I think that covers everything.

Thanks much!

I wasn't planning on doing the Deca alone. I was planning 200mg with 250mg of test (because it's just "adding" to what I'm currently on).

I have heard that I could mix the two oils in the same pin and the concentrations work out to 1ml of each per week (.5deca + .5test mixed together X 2 pins/week).

Now some people say that as long as you keep test' higher than the deca, you're fine. I feel fine on the test at this dosage and didn't know if the deca would change that feeling (libido...etc.)?

I had considered upping the test dose to 500mg and 200mg deca/wk for the cycle (12 weeks), but was afraid that when I cut it in half off-cycle, that I would have become accustomed to the 500mg dose and crash.

Obviously I'm shut down either way, so post cycle therapy (pct) isn't going to help someone who halves their T dose after 3 months, but I also don't want to feel like crap.

That's what led me to sticking with a consistent dose of T and cycling the stack if the other stack compounds weren't going to have a drastic effect on how I feel, and I don't want to be a junkie @ 500mg of T for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) alone because I got used to it on cycle.

Then I thought... well maybe I can just stay "on" both if it weren't Deca (so desperately requiring test or extra test). I thought maybe i could be on my 250mg of T with a low dose of EQ indefinitely (or taper on/off).

On the other hand, maybe I'd get the same results pinning only T' @ 500mg/week and skip everything else but an AI?

The combinations are out of control for the newbie... even the intelligent newbie.

So... 500mg of test for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) seems too high to "stay-on", but 250mg might not be enough to gain, and might not be a good ratio to a useful amount of other AS, but cycling up from 250mg T to 500mg T and 200mg of **** could cause withdrawals maybe when I end cycle back to 250mg of T? Arrrrrggggh!

GH was so much simpler... just pin and hope you're getting younger