First Cycle - Test Enth

[gettingully1]

This will be my first cycle. My goal is too add 10 lbs of quality lean muscle with minimal water and fat. I am not interested in blowing up and thats why I am going use an anti-estrogen during my cycle to combat water retention and fat. Here is what I'm looking at right now:

Week 1 – 10 Test Enth. 500mg (250mg Sunday / 250mg Thursday)
Week 4- 10 hCG 500iu (250 iu Saturday / 250 iu Wednesday)
Week 3- 10 20mg Nolva EOD (to combat water retention/fat/estrogen
PCT (nolva and clomid started 2 weeks after last shot)
Clomid Day 1 300mg
Clomid Days 2-11 100mg
Clomid Days 12-21 50 mg
Nolva Days 1-14 40mg
Nolva Days 15-28 20 mg


Is Nolva the best choice to combat estrogen during the cycle? Would clomid, Arimidex, or Aromasin be better options?
Should I take clomid and nolva together at night? Thanks for all your input. I can;t wait to get started.

 

[gettingully1]

A little bit more about myself:

Age: 21 (almost 22)
Weight: 185
Bodyfat: Around ~8%
Lifting for about - 7 years
Nutrition: Consume about 200 grams of protein a day most from whole foods (supplement with whey and casein) Planning on upping it to 250 on cycle.
Best Lifts:
Bench 315 x 2
Squat 405 x 2

 

[GymLift]

Using nolvadex during the cycle isn't going to combat water retention/fat/estrogen. If anything (and I really don't think you need anything), use Aromasin during the cycle.

Run the hCG until just prior to starting post cycle therapy (pct). post cycle therapy (pct) starts 2 weeks after your last inject.

 

[gettingully1]

Using nolvadex during the cycle isn't going to combat water retention/fat/estrogen. If anything (and I really don't think you need anything), use Aromasin during the cycle.

Why don;t you think I need anything? I want my gains to be as lean as possible and Test has high aromatization which should cause water retention and fat storage. How would Nolva not combat against that? Is nolva on cycle strictly for combatting gyno? How would you run Aromasin during the cycle? Thanks for your input.

 

[motawa]

Running nolva during the cycle will probably decrease your muscle gains.

 

[DADAWG]

Why don;t you think I need anything? I want my gains to be as lean as possible and Test has high aromatization which should cause water retention and fat storage. How would Nolva not combat against that? Is nolva on cycle strictly for combatting gyno? How would you run Aromasin during the cycle? Thanks for your input.

nolva doesnt prevent test converting to estrogen [ which is what causes bloat ] nolva shields the breast tissue from estrogen to prevent gyno .
use adex/aromasin/etc. to prevent / limit bloat but DONT over do it , controlling estrogen is the goal not eleminateing it .

 

[hitmang]

Just thought I'd go fishing...

 

[gettingully1]

i understand that controlling estrogen will hinder my gains but i'd rather have smaller but more qualitative gains than bigger, dirtier gains. thanks. i think i'll try aromasin. how should i run it?

 

[Sliding_Filament]

Eating clean (as in very clean), and doing cardio, will control most of the water and fat storage problems. Why so worried about these things bro? You have a very low body fat percentage as it is. And the bloat goes away after the cycle. Aromasin is expensive. Try training aromasin-free for a couple of weeks, see how your body responds to the Test, the clean diet, and the cardio. Hopefully you won't need it.

Clean diet: I'm talking about boiled chicken breasts, oatmeal with splenda, eye of round steak (visible fat taken out), water (avoid diet sodas), brown rice, minimal dairy, low-sodium everything... you get the picture. And lots of it.

Cardio is invaluable too, but don't overdo it. An hour in the morning (on an empty stomach), twice or thrice a week will suffice. Good luck with your cycle bro.

 

[Warmachine]

Eating clean (as in very clean), and doing cardio, will control most of the water and fat storage problems. Why so worried about these things bro? You have a very low body fat percentage as it is. And the bloat goes away after the cycle. Aromasin is expensive. Try training aromasin-free for a couple of weeks, see how your body responds to the Test, the clean diet, and the cardio. Hopefully you won't need it.

Clean diet: I'm talking about boiled chicken breasts, oatmeal with splenda, eye of round steak (visible fat taken out), water (avoid diet sodas), brown rice, minimal dairy, low-sodium everything... you get the picture. And lots of it.

Cardio is invaluable too, but don't overdo it. An hour in the morning (on an empty stomach), twice or thrice a week will suffice. Good luck with your cycle bro.

it is always wise to include an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in such a cycle. controlling the bloat will keep his blood pressure down which alone is worth it. high estro also correlates with several other health risks such as prostate cancer.
taht diet looks like something someone would use to prep for contest not build size. eliminating fat from a bulking diet is a good way to minimize gains. It will keep the water off though, thats dead on. i wouldnt reccomend that much cardio either, just pick something you like to do and do it 3-4 times a week for half an hour or so.

definatly use an aromatase ihibiter and keep the nolva on hand for gyno flare ups while on the hcg. aromasin, arimidex and aifm are all Aromatase inhibitor (AI) options.

 

[Sliding_Filament]

it is always wise to include an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in such a cycle. controlling the bloat will keep his blood pressure down which alone is worth it. high estro also correlates with several other health risks such as prostate cancer.
taht diet looks like something someone would use to prep for contest not build size. eliminating fat from a bulking diet is a good way to minimize gains. It will keep the water off though, thats dead on. i wouldnt reccomend that much cardio either, just pick something you like to do and do it 3-4 times a week for half an hour or so.

definatly use an aromatase ihibiter and keep the nolva on hand for gyno flare ups while on the hcg. aromasin, arimidex and aifm are all Aromatase inhibitor (AI) options.

The rise in blood pressure everyone correlates with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use is related to the increase in blood volume through testosterone's promotion of erythropoeisis, and not estrogen. Estrogen is even cardio-protective in nature, (which explains why women have less heart problems as they age). Increased blood volume results in the heart pumping harder and stronger, because its fibers are being stretched more by the resultant increase. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) also makes a person more sensitive to salt, which in turn retains more water, increasing the blood volume even more.

As far as the diet goes, your LDL levels, (which shuttles cholesterol and triglycerides from your liver to various tissue compartments, like say, your coronary blood vessels), will be increased while on AAS. So I think I gave good advise to our brother here to minimize fat intake, just to be on the conservative side. Healthier fats would include flax, olive oil, and the like.

There is no relation between fat intake, and water retention to my knowledge, (not unless the fat is sprinkled in salt). There is however, a relation between consumption of animal fats, and prostate cancer.

And high estro does not promote prostate cancer, dihydrotestosterone does.

An hour's worth of low-intensity cardio in the morning is optimal for fat-burning because

1. From the 6-8 hour fasting period at night spent sleeping, your body will be almost depleted of stored glucose, and

2. will resort to lypolisis from adipose tissue for energy, and

3. it takes a while for the body to achieve this, so you'll need some time to get the furnace going.

30 mins is ok I guess, but an hour is optimal.

See how your body responds without the drug first. Some of us really don't need it. Cheers!

 

[DADAWG]

The rise in blood pressure everyone correlates with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use is related to the increase in blood volume through testosterone's promotion of erythropoeisis, and not estrogen. Estrogen is even cardio-protective in nature, (which explains why women have less heart problems as they age). Increased blood volume results in the heart pumping harder and stronger, because its fibers are being stretched more by the resultant increase. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) also makes a person more sensitive to salt, which in turn retains more water, increasing the blood volume even more.

As far as the diet goes, your LDL levels, (which shuttles cholesterol and triglycerides from your liver to various tissue compartments, like say, your coronary blood vessels), will be increased while on AAS. So I think I gave good advise to our brother here to minimize fat intake, just to be on the conservative side. Healthier fats would include flax, olive oil, and the like.

There is no relation between fat intake, and water retention to my knowledge, (not unless the fat is sprinkled in salt). There is however, a relation between consumption of animal fats, and prostate cancer.

And high estro does not promote prostate cancer, dihydrotestosterone does.

An hour's worth of low-intensity cardio in the morning is optimal for fat-burning because

1. From the 6-8 hour fasting period at night spent sleeping, your body will be almost depleted of stored glucose, and

2. will resort to lypolisis from adipose tissue for energy, and

3. it takes a while for the body to achieve this, so you'll need some time to get the furnace going.

30 mins is ok I guess, but an hour is optimal.

See how your body responds without the drug first. Some of us really don't need it. Cheers!

thats a well though out post and theres probablly some science to back what you say but in the real world estrogen BLOAT causes a rise in bp , so technically it may not be the estrogen but the bloat from estrogen does increase your bp .

 

[Selene]

good luck to you with your cycle

 

[gettingully1]

thanks for all your suggestions. Cardio is very important for me. I want to add some size (as clean as possible) but not at the expense of not being able to run. Test increases the red bood count which should help with one's cardio ability, correct?

 

[mustanged77]

Running nolva during the cycle will probably decrease your muscle gains.

I never get this statement. Nolva is an awesome drug. It does not hinder your gains. Steroids don't work in a vacum. You have to have a balance to get the most out of your cycle. Who cares how much you can bench when you got milk leaking out your nipples?

I use nolva and armidex when I need it. Both work great. There always seems to be some bad vibe about nolva on this forum. Nolva is a tried and true combatant of gyno.
And yes you can use armidex and nolva at the same time.

 

[gettingully1]

Sliding Filament and everyone else, thanks for all your input. I like the idea of doing cardio in the morning but since I work it is somewhat diffucult. I guess I'll just have to wake up earlier. 30 minutes is a lot of cardio for me! Usually I do higher intensity cardio for shorter time. I guess longer-low intensity cardio is optimal for burning fat? What about doing sprint/foot work in the morning? This is easier on the joints and more pertinent to what i'm about. I might switch it up and do both. For my post-cardio meal in the morning I like to get an insulin spike going with a protein shake that consists of 30 grams Dextrose + 30 grams maltrodextrin + 30 grams whey protein + 5 grams BCAAs. An hour later I'll have my real breakfast (egg whites + grapefruit) with my first dose of fish oil. How does this sound?

 

[Sliding_Filament]

thats a well though out post and theres probablly some science to back what you say but in the real world estrogen BLOAT causes a rise in bp , so technically it may not be the estrogen but the bloat from estrogen does increase your bp .

Thanks DADAWG. It was never a habit of mine to post something I didn't do research on, learn in school, or personally experienced myself. It's just plain irresponsible, an a lot of people can get hurt that way.

Regarding your post, what is your point exactly? I never said Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) does not cause high BP. In fact I explained why there is such an increase. And I experienced the same things myself, while on AAS. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) causes fluid retention
mainly through its effects on the hypothalamus, and the subsequent release of hormones that in turn, has its main effects on the kidneys, causing salt and water retention (increasing blood volume). <----This right here folks is one of the major causes of High BP while on AAS. My advise is...watch the salt.

In my field, if the patient does not really need a particular drug, it would be unethical to prescribe it to them. I see the merit in giving something to inhibit the aromatase enzyme (which catalyzes the conversion of test to estrogen) while on a cycle. It prevents gyno, water, and fat retention and what not. I just hope that most of you guys consider the inherent risks involved in popping medicine that wasn't designed for the male body in the 1st place, case in point: Aromasin, which can cause joint problems and osteoporosis. But hey, it's your body right?

In my experience however, guys I know on that much test don't go around carrying that much water around with them. Why? It's all about what goes into their bodies, meaning the food they eat.

Our friend here was just like me at the beginning. This guy isn't looking for bulk, he's looking for quality, and quality food will produce quality gains. It's all about discipline and dedication. And on test, you can definitely achieve this, probably without the need for AI's. I did experience water bloat at one point, but with the proper low-fat, a low-sodium diet, and with cardio, i was dry in no time. Good luck gully.

 

[Sliding_Filament]

thanks for all your suggestions. Cardio is very important for me. I want to add some size (as clean as possible) but not at the expense of not being able to run. Test increases the red bood count which should help with one's cardio ability, correct?

Correct again.

More RBC's = more O2 in the blood stream = more O2 delivery to O2-starved tissues = more CO2 being carried out through the lungs = +++ Cardio Performance.