First cycle

[boydson]

Hey guys! This is my first post so let me introduce myself first. I'm boydson 26 y/o, 5 foot 6, 180 pounds, and about 10%Bf. I've been training seriously for 4 years now and my training and diet are in check. I have decided to try gear for the first time, and though I have done plenty of research I am still left with a few questions. Mostly about post cycle therapy (pct).
Right now my plan is to run the following:

Dbol: wk 1-4, 50mg/day
Test E: wk 1-10 500mg/wk

Basically from my research I have found that there are two schools of thought. One group of people who feel that large post cycles with multiple AI's are better and another group of people who feel that just Nolva is more then enough to get test levels back on track.

So here's my question. If i were to run the above cycle with a post cycle therapy (pct) of:
Clomid: wk 13-16 50mg/day
Nolva: wk 13-16 50mg/day

Would this be enough? Or should I be running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well? Aromasin?

Thanks guys,
Boydson

 

[P4P4_D]

Hey guys! This is my first post so let me introduce myself first. I'm boydson 26 y/o, 5 foot 6, 180 pounds, and about 10%Bf. I've been training seriously for 4 years now and my training and diet are in check. I have decided to try gear for the first time, and though I have done plenty of research I am still left with a few questions. Mostly about post cycle therapy (pct).
Right now my plan is to run the following:

Dbol: wk 1-4, 50mg/day
Test E: wk 1-10 500mg/wk

Basically from my research I have found that there are two schools of thought. One group of people who feel that large post cycles with multiple AI's are better and another group of people who feel that just Nolva is more then enough to get test levels back on track.

So here's my question. If i were to run the above cycle with a post cycle therapy (pct) of:
Clomid: wk 13-16 50mg/day
Nolva: wk 13-16 50mg/day

Would this be enough? Or should I be running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as well? Aromasin?

Thanks guys,
Boydson

You can do
Nolva:40/40/20/20
Clomid:50/50/50/50

Make sure u run ure Aromatase inhibitor (AI) throughtout cycle. To help with estro sides. Especially if ure running dbol on first cycle.aromasin u can run through cycle and post cycle therapy (pct). Many are not gonna recommend you do 2 compounds in first cycle. But to each his own.
HCG for a first cycle is optional.

 

[bigherm2121]

Two weeks after last injection start your post cycle therapy (pct). Not three.

 

[bigherm2121]

Start Aromasin at 12.5ed You may have to go up or down. Estrogen is needed to gain muscle but you need to find your sweet spot because to much or to little becomes problems

 

[SigmundRoid]

I'd keep dbol off the first cycle personally, and go with just test. That way if you get sides, you'll know where they're coming from and be able to adjust your next cycle.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

If I could do my first cyle again I would have included dbol, but its a lot easier to make that decision after the fact.

I personally think SERM's should be started no sooner than 3 weeks afte LE test cycle.

 

[bigherm2121]

If I could do my first cyle again I would have included dbol, but its a lot easier to make that decision after the fact.

I personally think SERM's should be started no sooner than 3 weeks afte LE test cycle.

Why is this? You feel as it works better. I've never tried that I usually do 2 weeks and so do most other guys. Just wondering y. Cause of the half life.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Why is this? You feel as it works better. I've never tried that I usually do 2 weeks and so do most other guys. Just wondering y. Cause of the half life.

yo yo wad up bigherm! nice to see ya

if we assume T levels get up to 5-6k on a 12 week plus TE cycle, lets calculate how long it would take to fall back into physiological range.

first where did i get 5-6k TT levels from?

If you look at the study 3-600mg test, you will see levels got anywhere from 2300-2800 at the end of the cycle. these bloods were drawn according to their calculated half-life of 7 days.

this means that the day or 2 following their previous inject they were double thos numbers.

now its one thing to fall back into physiological range, its another to fall low enough to where the pituitary will actually signal the testes. Dr. Scally says that number is 350, going on lab work of his patients. this is the only resource I can find to answer that question of when the testes will start again in correlation to current TT levels.

so if it was 5600, it took a week to go down by half (the half-life) thats 2800. then another week 1400 (far above where we would be at naturally).

another week 750 (thats 3 weeks)

and another 375 (the number scally says will allow pit to signal)

so thats actually is 4 weeks for optimal timing. 7 days is also short half-life for older guy carrying higher BF%.

so what happens if you start early? nothing really you just waste your post cycle therapy (pct) meds, and if you have only 4 weeks worth, then you really only did a 2 week post cycle therapy (pct), following me?

now lets take deca and do the same math, but remember deca has to be completely cleared, since just 100mg (1 shot) will shut you down completely, well you see where im going with this.

this is what i believe to be the cause for the many failed post cycle therapy (pct)'s after a deca cycle, timing.

hope this helps

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

to add to this:

if you look around the site you find post after post saying "im in my first week of post cycle therapy (pct) and i feel great and im still gaining strength, is this as bad as it gets?"

then you dont here from them for a couple weeks casue a week or 2 into post cycle therapy (pct) they turned into a girl for 10 days or so lol motivation from gym dies, strenght falls, piss out water yada yada yada

on my first cycle none of that happened til i was 14 days into post cycle therapy (pct), and i started 14 days after inject, it was Norma test e, 750mg a week

 

[bigherm2121]

yo yo wad up bigherm! nice to see ya

if we assume T levels get up to 5-6k on a 12 week plus TE cycle, lets calculate how long it would take to fall back into physiological range.

first where did i get 5-6k TT levels from?

If you look at the study 3-600mg test, you will see levels got anywhere from 2300-2800 at the end of the cycle. these bloods were drawn according to their calculated half-life of 7 days.

this means that the day or 2 following their previous inject they were double thos numbers.

now its one thing to fall back into physiological range, its another to fall low enough to where the pituitary will actually signal the testes. Dr. Scally says that number is 350, going on lab work of his patients. this is the only resource I can find to answer that question of when the testes will start again in correlation to current TT levels.

so if it was 5600, it took a week to go down by half (the half-life) thats 2800. then another week 1400 (far above where we would be at naturally).

another week 750 (thats 3 weeks)

and another 375 (the number scally says will allow pit to signal)

so thats actually is 4 weeks for optimal timing. 7 days is also short half-life for older guy carrying higher BF%.

so what happens if you start early? nothing really you just waste your post cycle therapy (pct) meds, and if you have only 4 weeks worth, then you really only did a 2 week post cycle therapy (pct), following me?

now lets take deca and do the same math, but remember deca has to be completely cleared, since just 100mg (1 shot) will shut you down completely, well you see where im going with this.

this is what i believe to be the cause for the many failed post cycle therapy (pct)'s after a deca cycle, timing.

hope this helps

Lol what's up bro? Ok i.see where your going with that. I like to get my learn on bro! Ok that is also in a perfect world saying his levels are that high. The only real way to know is if he gets bloods done. As long as his gear isn't underdosed or anything. Which I've found out a lot are. Lol. Thanks bro for the info.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Lol what's up bro? Ok i.see where your going with that. I like to get my learn on bro! Ok that is also in a perfect world saying his levels are that high. The only real way to know is if he gets bloods done. As long as his gear isn't underdosed or anything. Which I've found out a lot are. Lol. Thanks bro for the info.

your exactly right, keep in mind though if you run your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) like your suppose to that will keep t levels in the upper range even if the T clears early, basically its better to over estimate the time rather than under estimate it.

the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop, that needs to be started at precisely the correct time in order to efficiently bring it back online. thats why Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is really a must on anything but a first test only cycle.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

also if we take the 300mg group i think they got up to 1800, which is 3600 which takes about 4 times to get down

3600
1800
900
450
225

so the number itself doesnt matter as much, only the half life x 4

half life x3 is the shortest i would ever go

most consider the half-life to be 10 days, imagine if we use that math. 12-16 for deca and undecly

 

[bigherm2121]

Lol Damn.bro. I see what your saying. Good to know. But I guess that's why most guys will say two weeks just incase they don't get bloods or take some gear called johnnys pharma test e. Lol.

 

[boydson]

So what would you guys say as far as aromasin goes? As far as when to start and also how much while on cycle and while bridging to PCT

 

[P4P4_D]

Awesome info det. Makes sense why I still made gains during post cycle therapy (pct) ! How did you find that info? Would like to read the studies.

 

[P4P4_D]

So what would you guys say as far as aromasin goes? As far as when to start and also how much while on cycle and while bridging to PCT

You can start aromasin from the start @ 12.5mg and use it throuout cycle and post cycle therapy (pct). Just make sure. You get bloods done. You don't want ure estro to be to low either

 

[jadakiss]

How do u know when u should decrease aromasin ? Also what would be a good range to keep estro at on a cycle?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

here is Scally's post on the subject:

I have come to answer the questions posed, but if you read my posts, as well as publications, these questions are already answered.

A question that needs to be asked is what is the purpose of hCG administration? Of course, this will depend on the clinical context. First, let me categorically and clearly answer that hCG desensitization does not occur. I know this will probably not be the end of this myth, but I have provided ample documentation for its fallacy.

hCG administration basically occurs under two circumstances. One is during AAS administration, the other being as part of post cycle therapy (pct). I disagree with your definition or inference that hCG is not part of post cycle therapy (pct). In fact, there is no PCT without hCG!

During AAS administration, the purpose of hCG can be to maintain testes size, testosterone synthesis, and/or spermatogenesis. They are not the same. For simplicity, cycling is to maintain testosterone synthesis. Do you want this to be at a near maximal rate or minimal rate? The answer to this will provide the answer for the hCG dose.

The use of 250 IU is a waste of time and money. I am willing to administer 500 IU Q3D (every three days), although, 1000 IU Q3D is probably more worthwhile. Remember, the idea is to STIMULATE MAXIMALLY T synthesis, not tickle it!!! During PCT, I use hCG 2,000-2,500 IU QOD. hGH has been shown to stimulate T synthesis.

Regarding the day of administration; I do not mean to embarrass you, but this question is an insult and dumb. Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

If you do TE 500 mg/week, the T level at week 12 will be over 6,000 ng/dL. At a half-life of 10-14 days, it will take at least a month or more before the HPTA even attempts to function! This will answer the question about PCT timing. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation.

I have most of the info compiled in this thread




http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/156877-hcg-desensitization-does-exist.html

 

[boydson]

Sorry I'm digging up an old thread here, but I can only get arimidex not aromasin. How much of that should I use? Still 12.5 ED?