gains and losses from steroids?

[radow]

hi all, i am 21 years old and have been training on and off since i was 14 and for the last year and a half, 2 years been training steadily. I have recently been thinking about doing a cycle. i have been researching for about 7 months now, so therefore know what the noob basic knowledge i need to know. but before i even consider taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) i want to find out as much as possible before i dive in head first.

Ok now to get to what this thread is really about. Over the time I have been researching about Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) I have not found any reviews or blogs, threads etc... About this, which I think is also very important informative.

I understand that everyone has a genetic potential and to surpass this, athletes of which ever kind take Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to overcome this limit. I for one knows I have not reached this limit yet but results are starting to get slow.

I’m not one of them people which I so frequently read about saying, that I’m going to only take one cycle to get quick a build quick for summer and that’s all. No, I no I will take another and possible several and experiment with different stacks and combinations to achieve either bulk or definition. This is my hobby which I take seriously. I will have to eventually stop because after university and a while, let say 3 -4 years, I will be applying for a job which tests for drugs, and is it worth doing some cycles before then to get to the size I want, and the muscle mass not being lost, which would be a waste of time imo, and therefore not doing it and wasting time effort money etc...

what I would like to find out is, after taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and gaining muscle from the usage, how many year/months/forever long can I keep these gains for whilst still training, either for bulking or maintenance(to keep what muscle mass I have), after I have stopped the gear or will I just shrink down to my natural potential (whatever that may be), taking aside much wasn’t lost post cycle and a good post cycle therapy (pct) was implemented?

also has any one had any natural testosterone levels decline after using Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) even with a good post cycle therapy (pct), or does this imply to people who don’t know how to use it or what they are doing? has anyone done the blood work to notice this (if it does happen to someone who takes precautions) because this will obviously reduce your natural potential and therefore, natural strength levels and muscle levels will be lower then what you were normally to have?

Thanks allot for reading my post and taking the time to comment if you do. Opinions and people with experience in this scenario welcome to comment. I’m still researching and learning, every help will be grateful.


Cheers.

 

[nickd84]

If you lose what you gained then its because you stopped working out as hard as when you were "on." Or stopped eating. There are plenty of people that have shared their blood work during a cycle. Yes you will be suppressed but post cycle therapy (pct) should and will bring you back to normal, if you know what you are doing.

 

[TheMilkMan]

my natural test levels were 446 before my last cycle and 443 after PCT

I have kept a great deal of my gains (not all, I think no matter what anyone says thats impossible) its definitely a different experience being ON though, one you have to be ready for because you won't want to come off/train naturally

 

[bluefawnpitbull]

A few rules: Glad you realize...
1. Nobody ever juices once

Now for the rest of the rules...

2. You can never maintain the same level of physique (size, leanness, strength) off juice as you can when on juice

3. post cycle therapy (pct) will not help you keep ALL your gains, unless you only gained fat and water, or unless you start your next cycle before the "crash" period hits

4. Normal male Testosterone range on a blood test is 300-1100 ng/dl. Young healthy guys typically are located in the upper quartile which is roughly 800-1100 ng/dl. These are plasma blood levels and come from 5-10mg (if you have horse nuts and are an genetic freak) per day of natural production from the leydig cells in the testis.

This is why thinking you will keep ALL your gains due to a "good and proper PCT" is ridiculous. Even the weakest injection of testosterone no matter what the ester (cypionate, propionate, enanthate, Sustanon (sust) blend, etc.) is going to be around 100mg (maybe a propionate will be that low per cc)...which is already more than a "horse nut-genetic freak" makes in a week.

All optimal post cycle therapy (pct) does, is return your natural testosterone to normal or a bit higher faster than if you did not use any recovery drugs. After a farily normal cycle of 10 weeks or so and something basic like 400-500mg/week of injectibles with some orals, most men have "hypogonadal" (below the 300mg bottom range of natural Testosterone). post cycle therapy (pct) simply returns you to the upper range of natural Testosterone within a few days. There is a lag time of about a month that follows after post cycle therapy (pct) is done (age dependent-you will probably recover quickly at 21yrs old).

So, before you start, just think for yourself: 10mg/day if you are a natural production T-freak compared to a couple hundred milligrams per week of testosterone and other synthetics? No way. Bottom line, the only way to have a clearly drug enhanced (20-30lbs or more over your 'natural' size with leanness to go with it) physical build is to be on the drugs.


*caveat/minor exception: you may be able to re-set your overall bodyweight set-point, build a little thicker bones, keep some decent mass with reasonable leanness etc. if you juice for a few years, eat like a beast, gain a good amount of mass, and take great care of yourself afterwards

Just don't go into your juice experience as a young guy thinking that you will have a hardcore juiced looking physique from doing a few cycles and then training naturally. Some gains yes, major size and freaky ripped mass going with it, hardly.

Other fellas-apologies for the long post with the kid, I started when he did and something told me to help a bit, plus just had a similar conversation with my lil bro. I have been using and studying performance endocrinology for 15 years. Former National Qualified BB in NPC, Personal Trainer for 10 years-embarassing long list of training credentials, MS in Sports Medicine, recent medical fellowship in bioidentical hormones and now consult to MDs for the integration of hormonal, nutritional, and exercise optimization.

 

[blackpersondog]

21?.....got a bout three more years to read. lift till u plateau then add some creatine

 

[radow]

my natural test levels were 446 before my last cycle and 443 after PCT

I have kept a great deal of my gains (not all, I think no matter what anyone says thats impossible) its definitely a different experience being ON though, one you have to be ready for because you won't want to come off/train naturally

do u think your natural test levels will stay at 443 forever, or will they creep back up to 446 after a certain amount of time?

thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

 

[radow]

If you lose what you gained then its because you stopped working out as hard as when you were "on." Or stopped eating. There are plenty of people that have shared their blood work during a cycle. Yes you will be suppressed but post cycle therapy (pct) should and will bring you back to normal, if you know what you are doing.

cool, so as long as you keep the same sort off intensity in the gym, you will keep the muscles that you have gained (what ever that may be, i.e. while u were ON and gained 20 lb, and after post cycle therapy (pct) u had kept 15lb, you will keep that 15lb forever aslong as you carry on with the same intensityin the gym as you were when you were ON )?

thanks for the relpy, very much appreciated.

 

[radow]

A few rules: Glad you realize...
1. Nobody ever juices once

Now for the rest of the rules...

2. You can never maintain the same level of physique (size, leanness, strength) off juice as you can when on juice

3. post cycle therapy (pct) will not help you keep ALL your gains, unless you only gained fat and water, or unless you start your next cycle before the "crash" period hits

4. Normal male Testosterone range on a blood test is 300-1100 ng/dl. Young healthy guys typically are located in the upper quartile which is roughly 800-1100 ng/dl. These are plasma blood levels and come from 5-10mg (if you have horse nuts and are an genetic freak) per day of natural production from the leydig cells in the testis.

This is why thinking you will keep ALL your gains due to a "good and proper PCT" is ridiculous. Even the weakest injection of testosterone no matter what the ester (cypionate, propionate, enanthate, Sustanon (sust) blend, etc.) is going to be around 100mg (maybe a propionate will be that low per cc)...which is already more than a "horse nut-genetic freak" makes in a week.

All optimal post cycle therapy (pct) does, is return your natural testosterone to normal or a bit higher faster than if you did not use any recovery drugs. After a farily normal cycle of 10 weeks or so and something basic like 400-500mg/week of injectibles with some orals, most men have "hypogonadal" (below the 300mg bottom range of natural Testosterone). post cycle therapy (pct) simply returns you to the upper range of natural Testosterone within a few days. There is a lag time of about a month that follows after post cycle therapy (pct) is done (age dependent-you will probably recover quickly at 21yrs old).

So, before you start, just think for yourself: 10mg/day if you are a natural production T-freak compared to a couple hundred milligrams per week of testosterone and other synthetics? No way. Bottom line, the only way to have a clearly drug enhanced (20-30lbs or more over your 'natural' size with leanness to go with it) physical build is to be on the drugs.


*caveat/minor exception: you may be able to re-set your overall bodyweight set-point, build a little thicker bones, keep some decent mass with reasonable leanness etc. if you juice for a few years, eat like a beast, gain a good amount of mass, and take great care of yourself afterwards

Just don't go into your juice experience as a young guy thinking that you will have a hardcore juiced looking physique from doing a few cycles and then training naturally. Some gains yes, major size and freaky ripped mass going with it, hardly.

Other fellas-apologies for the long post with the kid, I started when he did and something told me to help a bit, plus just had a similar conversation with my lil bro. I have been using and studying performance endocrinology for 15 years. Former National Qualified BB in NPC, Personal Trainer for 10 years-embarassing long list of training credentials, MS in Sports Medicine, recent medical fellowship in bioidentical hormones and now consult to MDs for the integration of hormonal, nutritional, and exercise optimization.

very imformative reply, just wat i was looking for. so test levels will return to normal levels after a certain amount of time (i.e if they were 500, thay will return to 500 in a certain amount of time), and you will be able to keep the gains i have won post cycle (what ever that my be).?

with your experience and expertise, would you advise me to consider a cycle in the very near future, or stay natural for a while? if you need any more personal info i.e. weight, hight i will post it to help you decide?

 

[bluefawnpitbull]

There are never any guarantees as far as recovery of testosterone. Many times people recover and actually overshoot on their post-cycle labs and other times testosterone takes a while longer. As I mentioned, your age will work in your favor allowing your testosterone to return to normal quicker than possible (all else being equal).

But, no guarantees-you will only know when you obtain experience. Sometimes recovery process is very individual. If you need me to guestimate, I would say novice level juice cycles like 400-500mg of a testosterone with an oral or a nandrolone will probalby take 2-3 months to recover from the time of your last shot of gear.

Now, the type of gear you use will affect what I just said. This is common sense and if it doesn't make sense, definitley do more research before even considering taking gear. The longer the drug lasts, the longer you will have negative feedback on your brain shutting off your testis from making testosterone. post cycle therapy (pct) works better when gear is out of your system and no longer active. Quick example, nandrolone decanoate "Deca" can stay active for 3-4 weeks after your last shot. So your recovery will not truly begin until that time.

You may feel fine fast with good post cycle therapy (pct), but your actual levels take around two months because the leydig cells which produce test must recover normal function from the brain (pituitary) down.

This is called a "feed-back loop" and drugs like HCG speed this process but do not actually correct the loop from the brain (pituitary) to the testis. Only time will do that.

As far as starting gear...there are no definitive rules. Few questions on your strength though:
1. can you bench press your own weight 10 times?
2. how many chins can you do (any grip). More than 8-10?
3. can you squat 1.5 times your weight 10 times?

You don't need to answer for me, answer these for yourself. If you are close to these numbers, I still think you should do some research and just train and eat...but it would not be totally wastefull if you have built your strength up this high. If not, study, eat, lift. Study, eat, lift.

 

[TuffGuy6]

NOOOOOO!
1. can you bench press your own weight 10 times?
2. how many chins can you do (any grip). More than 8-10?
3. can you squat 1.5 times your weight 10 times?

I hate this!!! What if (and I've seen them talking all this shit) they are 135 pounds????

So what if they can bench their weight 10 times... I could bench 135 10 times in middle school.
"I can do 12 chin-ups!!! I'm a bad-ass!"
"Dude, your arms are like toothpicks."

It is WAY Harder if you weigh between 200-220, even if you are pretty stacked to do these requirements... which is what you are probably are guessing.

Why don't you just say that weight.

 

[radow]

There are never any guarantees as far as recovery of testosterone. Many times people recover and actually overshoot on their post-cycle labs and other times testosterone takes a while longer. As I mentioned, your age will work in your favor allowing your testosterone to return to normal quicker than possible (all else being equal).

But, no guarantees-you will only know when you obtain experience. Sometimes recovery process is very individual. If you need me to guestimate, I would say novice level juice cycles like 400-500mg of a testosterone with an oral or a nandrolone will probalby take 2-3 months to recover from the time of your last shot of gear.

Now, the type of gear you use will affect what I just said. This is common sense and if it doesn't make sense, definitley do more research before even considering taking gear. The longer the drug lasts, the longer you will have negative feedback on your brain shutting off your testis from making testosterone. post cycle therapy (pct) works better when gear is out of your system and no longer active. Quick example, nandrolone decanoate "Deca" can stay active for 3-4 weeks after your last shot. So your recovery will not truly begin until that time.

You may feel fine fast with good post cycle therapy (pct), but your actual levels take around two months because the leydig cells which produce test must recover normal function from the brain (pituitary) down.

This is called a "feed-back loop" and drugs like HCG speed this process but do not actually correct the loop from the brain (pituitary) to the testis. Only time will do that.

As far as starting gear...there are no definitive rules. Few questions on your strength though:
1. can you bench press your own weight 10 times?
2. how many chins can you do (any grip). More than 8-10?
3. can you squat 1.5 times your weight 10 times?

You don't need to answer for me, answer these for yourself. If you are close to these numbers, I still think you should do some research and just train and eat...but it would not be totally wastefull if you have built your strength up this high. If not, study, eat, lift. Study, eat, lift.

for questions 1,2,3 it is a yes. thanks for the advice. i have one more question that is on my mind. that is:

if i gained 'x' number of muscle mass from steroid usage, over an amount of time this is not while on gear, but the amount of muscle that i have after the cycle has ended, and i have done my post cycle therapy (pct), and its been 2-3 months after my last jab. how long will i keep this mass (weight) that i have addained, if i carry on training OFF GEAR? or will i eventually go back to my natural potential maximum muscle weight?

this is because i want to use gear, but in about 2-4 years, the job i will be applying for will have drugs tests, and i will want to keep what gains i have managed to keep from gear then. taking in mind that i will lose a some mass after the cycles, but i will keep 'most of them' (hopefully with right knowlage and pct's). will the 'most of them' lol, muscles that i have attained stay if i train OFF GEAR because i wont be able to cycle once iv got the job?

thanks again

 

[needsize]

I have seen lots of guys, myself included for the times I was clean, keep their gains when they went clean. The further you get past your natural limits, then the harder it is to do, but it takes a lot of cycles to get past the point where you cant keep what you gained without steroids

 

[Htownfirefighter]

Quick question, what kind of blood test is required to get those numbers? I recently had a full physical with the FD and blood work was done. We'll my levels been on the chart they sent me or is it a special test? Can most Dr's office do the test?

 

[bluefawnpitbull]

You must have specific hormones or a 'hormone panel' checked off when the lab is ordered out. This is up to your doc.

As far as testosterone testing in serum (blood), this is what you will need:

Testosterone Total = free + SHBG(bound) + albumen(bound)
Testosterone Free = active and unbound, usually 1-3% of Total
SHBG
Albumen

 

[radow]

cheere's guys, thanks for all the advice.