Have you frontloaded?

[cashout]

ok so it looks like we are kinda seeing a difference in opinion. Can someone explain why this theory wouldn't work?
__________________________________________________________________________

Cashout - i do agree with you and think is you were to front load make sure you are on an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) starting the first pin.

If you don't mind sharing. What Aromatase inhibitor (AI) do you run at what dosage?

As I wrote, I personally love frontloading b/c I am not sitting around for 5-6 weeks waiting for my 'kick.'

There is no doubt that by the middle of the 2nd week, my blood levels are plateaued and stable for the rest of the cycle.

I've got enough blood draws over the years to confirm that fact.

I have used Adex on all of my cycles since 2003 so that would include my last 8 cycles. I have followed the .5 mg EOD approach with Adex and it has kept my estrogen levels consistently in the low range of normal around 25 pg/ml.

Now, I only use test and my cycles are never more than 700 mg per week.

Regards.

 

[Hcc5881]

So cashout says it works. I would have to agree in theory although I have never tried. Cashout, would you prefer it over test prop?

 

[Die$eL~Man]

your wasting your gear with the frontload

 

[cashout]

So cashout says it works. I would have to agree in theory although I have never tried. Cashout, would you prefer it over test prop?

Yes - prop is a very short chain carboxylic acid and it is very irritating for me. I get a big red welt and low grade fever for 24 hours after a shot of prop.

I can't use prop or any blended test that has prop in it.

Regards.

 

[cashout]

your wasting your gear with the frontload

Please elaborate...

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Front loading is bad science. It just preps the body to have negative side effects. Almost always caused Test Flu and weigh loss. Why Stress the body. Just use the proper stack of short esters to get the safe gains you want.

 

[supersafado]

I was just talking to one of my friends who is currently taking 1000mg of test e a week. I talked to him today. He is currently on week 4 and told me he is just not feeling the kick. His levels are high but even with high levels (personally I think that much is stupid, should of stacked and dropped and kept test and lower levels) This doesn't accelerate the lag of your body to start responding to it. So what first sparked my interest is now making me kinda second guess. I think running an extra week would be worth more than front loading. not my opinion set in stone but that is the direction i am starting to lean.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

he's going to have tits before he knows it and before he starts to see any positive effects in week 6. There is never a need to run that much your body can't use it. It's just going to reek havoc on the rest of his organs. It pretty stupid he will end up one of the guys you read about in the news. Steroids kill ..bla bla bla. He will end up with high Blood pressure and an enlarged valve permanently. Unless your friend is over 300 pounds he just a fool. It's not like he will ever be stepping on stage at the olympia. Life will be short. There should never be a need to use more than 550 mg. It's why people stack things to get the synergistic effects and avoid killing them selves

 

[cashout]

Front loading is bad science. It just preps the body to have negative side effects. Almost always caused Test Flu and weigh loss. Why Stress the body. Just use the proper stack of short esters to get the safe gains you want.

Okay, you need to support the bad science statement. Do you have quantifiable support for that? Please share.

In 20 years of doing this, I've never heard of 'test flu' with a long ester. Short esters yes - and 'test flu' is not from the test itself its from the action of the short esters, like prop, that are irritating to the tissue b/c they are short chain carboxylic acids and cause localized tissue damage and a reaction.

Regards.

 

[Kane_Red_Machine]

Okay, you need to support the bad science statement. Do you have quantifiable support for that? Please share.

In 20 years of doing this, I've never heard of 'test flu' with a long ester. Short esters yes - and 'test flu' is not from the test itself its from the action of the short esters, like prop, that are irritating to the tissue b/c they are short chain carboxylic acids and cause localized tissue damage and a reaction.

Regards.

you did fronload since 20 years, and you don't wonder why you're on TRT.
Ok You sound good...

 

[cashout]

you did fronload since 20 years, and you don't wonder why you're on TRT.
Ok You sound good...

No, I've frontload the last 8 cycles. Please reread my previous comments in this thread.

As for HRT - my test levels were in the 'normal' range of 579 ng/dl last March when I started HRT. I like to keep them in the 1000+ range. I feel much better and I am more productive in that range.

So, my HRT is a choice to maintain a near-supra level of test.

But please enlighten me as to how using a frontload would correlate to choosing to be on HRT?

Regards.

 

[Hcc5881]

Frontloading and Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)? I don't see the coorelation.

 

[supersafado]

he's going to have tits before he knows it and before he starts to see any positive effects in week 6. There is never a need to run that much your body can't use it. It's just going to reek havoc on the rest of his organs. It pretty stupid he will end up one of the guys you read about in the news. Steroids kill ..bla bla bla. He will end up with high Blood pressure and an enlarged valve permanently. Unless your friend is over 300 pounds he just a fool. It's not like he will ever be stepping on stage at the olympia. Life will be short. There should never be a need to use more than 550 mg. It's why people stack things to get the synergistic effects and avoid killing them selves

Agreed but some people as you can see won't listen no matter what. If you aren't feeling the test kick by 4 weeks with running that much test well then.... Front loading 500mg wont change anything. The body obviously takes time adjusting to short esters. So the questionis this.

On a first cycle when someone doesn't want to wait that extra time to start feeling the effects of a long ester. What can be recommended.

 

[RJ]

jesus christ this thread is making my head hurt.

First of all, why does no one consider homeostasis when they cycle? That is IMO the biggest problem out there. Someone above said a week longer is better than a frontload. That is the right idea. Long term keepable gains, not how fast you feel the "kick". I'm not telling everyone to go out and 20 week cycles, but the longer you let your body acclimate to the new muscle gain, the better off you'll be keeping it.

With that being said, I've never understood the need to frontload. Not saying it can't work, but work for what? I keep hearing guys say it takes 4-8 weeks for the "kick". I only ever used LE gear and always felt the "kick" in less than 4 weeks. That is when I started seeing size gains. Strength usually in 2 weeks, maybe 3. If its taking you that long to see results with LE gear, your diet or training is fucked up!!

If everyone would just do basic cycles with low dose gear (yes I've done big cycles, but always more multi-compound synergy than mega doses), and focus more on diet and training (the things that make you grow) instead of relying on the drugs to make it happen, and happen as fast as possible no less, you would have so much more success than you do now.

In the whole time i cycled i think i did 5 cycles. 5. That's it, and I know based on pics posted that I hold much more muscle than most of the guys I see posting shit about how can i make this drug work better, etc. I hear guys say they are on their 10th cycle and they still can't keep gains. That's because they rely on the gear.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE GEAR!!! Food makes you big. Strength makes you big. Yes, gear should help when you reach plateaus, but the main two things still apply.

Food, Training, Rest.

P.S. This is not directed at anyone in particular. Just trying to give all more insight they might not be thinking about.

 

[supersafado]

jesus christ this thread is making my head hurt.

First of all, why does no one consider homeostasis when they cycle? That is IMO the biggest problem out there. Someone above said a week longer is better than a frontload. That is the right idea. Long term keepable gains, not how fast you feel the "kick". I'm not telling everyone to go out and 20 week cycles, but the longer you let your body acclimate to the new muscle gain, the better off you'll be keeping it.

With that being said, I've never understood the need to frontload. Not saying it can't work, but work for what? I keep hearing guys say it takes 4-8 weeks for the "kick". I only ever used LE gear and always felt the "kick" in less than 4 weeks. That is when I started seeing size gains. Strength usually in 2 weeks, maybe 3. If its taking you that long to see results with LE gear, your diet or training is fucked up!!

If everyone would just do basic cycles with low dose gear (yes I've done big cycles, but always more multi-compound synergy than mega doses), and focus more on diet and training (the things that make you grow) instead of relying on the drugs to make it happen, and happen as fast as possible no less, you would have so much more success than you do now.

In the whole time i cycled i think i did 5 cycles. 5. That's it, and I know based on pics posted that I hold much more muscle than most of the guys I see posting shit about how can i make this drug work better, etc. I hear guys say they are on their 10th cycle and they still can't keep gains. That's because they rely on the gear.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE GEAR!!! Food makes you big. Strength makes you big. Yes, gear should help when you reach plateaus, but the main two things still apply.

Food, Training, Rest.

P.S. This is not directed at anyone in particular. Just trying to give all more insight they might not be thinking about.

Thanks for the comment. Now I have a question for you. You said don't go 20 but what would you recommend? I am looking at starting my first cycle in about 2 1/2 months. So I am interested for me but also as a general rule. Should I go 16 weeks? I was looking at 12 at first but giving your body more time to acclimate makes sense.

 

[RJ]

Thanks for the comment. Now I have a question for you. You said don't go 20 but what would you recommend? I am looking at starting my first cycle in about 2 1/2 months. So I am interested for me but also as a general rule. Should I go 16 weeks? I was looking at 12 at first but giving your body more time to acclimate makes sense.

i said i wouldn't tell everyone that. lol

Listen, you gotta do what you think is best, but if you get a baseline test level check before you start, monitor everything in between and do a proper post cycle therapy (pct), there is no reason a 16-20 week cycle is gonna be any worse than a 12 week one. That's my though anyway. I've seen guys do 6 week cycles of Prop and fuck up the endocrine system. That shit is mostly genetic. If your body wants to stop producing test, its gonna do it.

With that being said, i would suggest a 16 week cycle. Usually for me the 8-10 wek mark is when i see the biggest gains and then they start taper off. Yes i could add more cals and gain more, but I like to make reasonable quality gains, and then spend 6-8 weeks letting my body acclimate to that new weight. Will you still drop weight? Sure. But it ain't gonna be what happens to most guys that you see shrink after their cycles. As long as you follow PCT principles correctly (keep cals high, lower volume but keep intensity high, and stay off the scale), this is a great method for keeping your gains.

Problem is guys spend more time trying to figure out shit like front loading and how to make things better than actually concentrating on the important shit.

Shooting gear is simple. Its discipline in the gym and in the kitchen thats hard.

 

[cashout]

Thanks for the comment. Now I have a question for you. You said don't go 20 but what would you recommend? I am looking at starting my first cycle in about 2 1/2 months. So I am interested for me but also as a general rule. Should I go 16 weeks? I was looking at 12 at first but giving your body more time to acclimate makes sense.

Set your goals for the cycle before you start the cycle.

If your goals are something like...

10 pounds of muscle or..
25 lbs on max lifts or...
cut to 6% body fat

Then stay on cycle until you meet your goals or as long as you are still making solid progress toward your goals.

If your goals are realistic and you've done your homework, this should be common sense.

I've never gone into a cycle with the idea it had to be a certain number of weeks. They have always been goal-oriented.

There is no magic cycle length. 12, 16, 20 whatever. It's about achieving your goals.

If you hit your goals at week 12 then put a check mark in the box and move in to PCT.

Then evaluate your overall strategy and reset your goals.

 

[RJ]

Set your goals for the cycle before you start the cycle.

If your goals are something like...

10 pounds of muscle or..
25 lbs on max lifts or...
cut to 6% body fat

Then stay on cycle until you meet your goals or as long as you are still making solid progress toward your goals.

If your goals are realistic and you've done your homework, this should be common sense.

I've never gone into a cycle with the idea it had to be a certain number of weeks. They have always been goal-oriented.

There is no magic cycle length. 12, 16, 20 whatever. It's about achieving your goals.

If you hit your goals at week 12 then put a check mark in the box and move in to PCT.

Then evaluate your overall strategy and reset your goals.

eh. sound logic, but again, say you set your goal for 10lbs of muscle, and reach it at 12 weeks. My point is, if you stop there, you body is gonna be chasing homeostasis bad because it hasn't had to time to get used to that weight. This is why most guys get all fucked up in the head when they cycle and lose a bunch of weight. They don't understand homeostasis.

Adding another 6-8 weeks will allow for a much greater chance for your body to retain that weight, than if you were to stop at 12 weeks. This isn't an exact science, so i agree with what you said above, but the acclimation to new muscle weight is, to me, one of the most important aspects of cycling.

 

[cashout]

eh. sound logic, but again, say you set your goal for 10lbs of muscle, and reach it at 12 weeks. My point is, if you stop there, you body is gonna be chasing homeostasis bad because it hasn't had to time to get used to that weight. This is why most guys get all fucked up in the head when they cycle and lose a bunch of weight. They don't understand homeostasis.

Adding another 6-8 weeks will allow for a much greater chance for your body to retain that weight, than if you were to stop at 12 weeks. This isn't an exact science, so i agree with what you said above, but the acclimation to new muscle weight is, to me, one of the most important aspects of cycling.

Roger that! I am with you on the idea of bio-equilibrium and acclimation. There is a time factor.

I think we are on the same page here. I consistently find guys that, as you rightly pointed out, spend all their time designing cycles with exotic stacks of this that and the other thing without giving any real thought to correlating inputs to outputs or how they will manage the process after the fact.

I'll asked them "So, what's your goal?" You know what I typically get "I'm trying to get big."

Okay, so my next questions is "What the hell does that mean?"

Then I get the blank stare and open mouth.

Its a never ending pattern of acting before thinking with most folks.

Wow, this thread has wandered all over the place, hasn't it?

Regards.

 

[RJ]

Roger that! I am with you on the idea of bio-equilibrium and acclimation. There is a time factor.

I think we are on the same page here. I consistently find guys that, as you rightly pointed out, spend all their time designing cycles with exotic stacks of this that and the other thing without giving any real thought to correlating inputs to outputs or how they will manage the process after the fact.

I'll asked them "So, what's your goal?" You know what I typically get "I'm trying to get big."

Okay, so my next questions is "What the hell does that mean?"

Then I get the blank stare and open mouth.

Its a never ending pattern of acting before thinking with most folks.

Wow, this thread has wandered all over the place, hasn't it?

Regards.

it has, but the good debates always do. I agree... and have always said, guys now have too much concern with insignificant shit when they choose to cycle.

Its simple. eat and train hard and you will grow. Add gear and you will grow more. But you have to still do the first two.

I don't know how much more simple it can be right?