Hypertrophy training and strength loss...

[bigtimechief]

This stems from the injury/tendonitis thread. Particularly, inhaus mentioned training for hypertrophy, (less emphasis on heavy weights/volume).

I've noticed I don't achieve strength gains while hypertrophy training, and some loss. I realize this term may be interchangeable to some, but my interpretation is moderate weight, short rest periods, and concentration on muscle contraction. 10-12 rep range.

My best growth has come from heavy lifting. I'd like to know if sustained hypertrophy training has worked for achieving strength gains, and continued size increases.

I'm stuck not lifting heavy for now, and I'm wondering if my current training regimen will work long term for continued growth, or do I need to have heavy lifting cycles.


?

 

[Hypnotix]

This stems from the injury/tendonitis thread. Particularly, inhaus mentioned training for hypertrophy, (less emphasis on heavy weights/volume).

I've noticed I don't achieve strength gains while hypertrophy training, and some loss. I realize this term may be interchangeable to some, but my interpretation is moderate weight, short rest periods, and concentration on muscle contraction. 10-12 rep range.

My best growth has come from heavy lifting. I'd like to know if sustained hypertrophy training has worked for achieving strength gains, and continued size increases.

I'm stuck not lifting heavy for now, and I'm wondering if my current training regimen will work long term for continued growth, or do I need to have heavy lifting cycles.


?

How light is light? It's all relative. But training for hypertrophy using 3J's reverse pyramid program, I was able to develop or maintain strength (diet dependant in my case) across the board.

The ideal setup would be to attack your muscle on all fronts with a weight that it's just barely comfortable at using in a set rep range.

X amt of weight, failure at 4 reps
Y amt of weight, failure at 6 reps
Z amt... etc.

Do a warm up set everytime, whatever weight you can do 15 of and fail at 15. Rest for 45 seconds between sets, 1-1:30 between the big lifts. Superset 8 reps into 20 reps, fail at eight, change the weight to fail at 20 reps. If doing a pull go 1 second intrinsic, 4 seconds extrinsic. If doing a press go 4 seconds intinsic, 1 second extrinsic.

5 days a week, Chest, Back, Shoulders, Legs, Arms.

Worked for me.

 

[bigtimechief]

Thanks for your reply.

Full disclosure to my training:

I do use a reverse pyramid type of training. Basically, I believe that's the only way to stay in the target rep range with short rest periods, right?

I'll go with bench weight. This is basically how I approach all muscle groups.(except for a few).

135 x 15-20 warm up
185 x 10 warm up
225 x 6 - 8 warm up
275 x 3-5 warm up

315 x 8-10 first working set
275 x 8-10
225 x 10-15
225 x 8-10

Is this consistent with what you are doing? These incorporate short rest periods 60-120 secs.

With the extrinsic, intrinsic suggestion. Are you suggesting 4 secs down, 1 up on pressing? Just want to be clear.

Look forward to your advice

 

[bigtimechief]

Btw. All those lifts are to failure with good form.

 

[Hypnotix]

Thanks for your reply.

Full disclosure to my training:

I do use a reverse pyramid type of training. Basically, I believe that's the only way to stay in the target rep range with short rest periods, right?

I'll go with bench weight. This is basically how I approach all muscle groups.(except for a few).

135 x 15-20 warm up
185 x 10 warm up
225 x 6 - 8 warm up
275 x 3-5 warm up

315 x 8-10 first working set
275 x 8-10
225 x 10-15
225 x 8-10

Is this consistent with what you are doing? These incorporate short rest periods 60-120 secs.

With the extrinsic, intrinsic suggestion. Are you suggesting 4 secs down, 1 up on pressing? Just want to be clear.

Look forward to your advice

You are actually doing pyramid training. Where the weight progressively increases. With reverse pyramid the goal is to experience full exhaustion at the heaviest weight first, then progress down from there..

You want to target fast twitch fibers first. Blow those out.. because if you build up to a weight you'll likely be doing much less than you're actually capable of at that rep range, being that you've burnt out fast twitch along the way.

You can do two warm ups, three if it's a particularly heavy lift. But once you make the jump to heavy weight.. start low reps and work up to high reps.

 

[Hypnotix]

You'll find that writing everything down is extremely critical to this program. Finding proper weight for each rep range.. and knowing when to move up. Will be hard to mentally keep track of everything week after week.

 

[bigtimechief]

I realize I pyramid up, but that's just for warm ups. I work up slowly to get my body used to the load, then it's as u suggested.

Great advice on writing it down. It's not as easy as walking in a beating your 1rm. I think progress appears differently with this type of training.

 

[halfwit]

You can still make strength gains, it's just slower as it's vastly more difficult to increase weight substantially while maintaining a higher rep range.

I find that once I can do a certain weight for ten reps with less than an honest effort on the last two, I bump it up a couple pounds. It's the same principle as strength training, just with baby steps.

 

[bigtimechief]

Encouraging words halfwit.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I'll add that short rest periods and strength are complete opposites.

If your going to have to rely on hypertrophy training for your strength gains then I'd suggest increasing the rest periods to around 3-5mins rather than 60-120 secs. This wont have any detrimental effect on muscle growth (hypertrophy) and will benefit you vastly for strength.

 

[Megatron28]

I like the JEFIT app for keeping track of workouts. Just download it on your phone for free.

 

[bigtimechief]

I've used short rest periods exclusively to keep up intensity with lighter weights. I do this to reach close to muscle failure without getting heavy. Longer rest times means heavier weights for muscle failure (which I'm trying to avoid.)

However, what I'm getting from your post is possibly more volume to compensate?

I've always been a heavy lifter. This is a new road to me, and I value your guys' input very much.

 

[bigtimechief]

I'll check it out. I've got a workout journal I've been using, but injuries and training changes have left me in a position where I don't know what to record! Alas, I'm learning. Thanks

 

[bigtimechief]

Damn android. First post was response to ripped, 2nd mega.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I've used short rest periods exclusively to keep up intensity with lighter weights. I do this to reach close to muscle failure without getting heavy. Longer rest times means heavier weights for muscle failure (which I'm trying to avoid.)

However, what I'm getting from your post is possibly more volume to compensate?

I've always been a heavy lifter. This is a new road to me, and I value your guys' input very much.

To be clear, does this mean going up in weight is completely out of the question regardless of rep ranges?

 

[bigtimechief]

This is where it gets muddy for me. I'm not sure if my issues are from excessive load, or overuse.

Let's say I won't go up in weight, what would you suggest?

God forbid I just lift for maintenance, but that's almost how its been.

I'm seeing a specialist soon, and I should have more clarification of my condition. However, these lighter weights and shorter rest periods have helped considerably, but I'm after progress, however that may look.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Without going up in weight things get insanely complicated from a tracking perspective for growth - but it can still be done.

You need to focus on progressively overloading other variables such as rest periods, tempo and volume.
Obvious ways of doing this are progressively reducing the rest period like 120 - 90 - 60 - 45 - 30 - 15 on circuits, progressively increasing the volume (German volume training - 10x10 on movements) or progressively slowing down the tempo (6 second concentric, 12 second eccentrics, etc).
Now clearly all of these methods have severe limits if you never plan on increasing the weight but are reasonable short term alternatives.

I also recommend looking into something known as density training by Charles Staley.
This programme focuses on total workload rather than simply weight. The idea is to superset agonist & antagonists (chest/back, bi's/tri's, etc) and perform as many reps as possible within a 15 minute time limit.
The aim is to beat that number the subsequent workout thereby progressively increasing your total workload.

Just a few ideas that I've seen work

 

[inhaus]

I'll add that short rest periods and strength are complete opposites.

If your going to have to rely on hypertrophy training for your strength gains then I'd suggest increasing the rest periods to around 3-5mins rather than 60-120 secs. This wont have any detrimental effect on muscle growth (hypertrophy) and will benefit you vastly for strength.

I can echo this in my personal experience. I have lost a lot of strength doing this pyramid type training but I attribute most of the regression to being in a deficit and losing quite a bit of body weight every week rather than the training style. In my experience I explode in strength doing a long rest period 5x5 where as this pyramid style seems to give me better definition and density but not so great for strength so far.

 

[Hypnotix]

Without going up in weight things get insanely complicated from a tracking perspective for growth - but it can still be done.

You need to focus on progressively overloading other variables such as rest periods, tempo and volume.
Obvious ways of doing this are progressively reducing the rest period like 120 - 90 - 60 - 45 - 30 - 15 on circuits, progressively increasing the volume (German volume training - 10x10 on movements) or progressively slowing down the tempo (6 second concentric, 12 second eccentrics, etc).
Now clearly all of these methods have severe limits if you never plan on increasing the weight but are reasonable short term alternatives.

I also recommend looking into something known as density training by Charles Staley.
This programme focuses on total workload rather than simply weight. The idea is to superset agonist & antagonists (chest/back, bi's/tri's, etc) and perform as many reps as possible within a 15 minute time limit.
The aim is to beat that number the subsequent workout thereby progressively increasing your total workload.

Just a few ideas that I've seen work

How often do you recommend varying the progressive overloading of different variables as listed above?

What variables could be changed together? How would it affect progress in terms of strength, size, or endurance?

Btw, information is great. I'm just curious what you've seen come of individuals who have changed certain things.. progress wise. Thanks man!

 

[Hypnotix]

Maybe even... what is the method you've seen be most consistent in causing growth and allowing strength to improve simultaneously? Particularly in individuals who are not beginners.