I love muscle memory
- Thread starter pipes
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string_bean00
Guest
pipes said:I've been back hitting the gym hard for a month following a two month lay off. I have already gained back 7 lbs and my strength is going through the roof. I'm getting juice gains naturally!
Is it kind of like that exciting time when you first picked up the weights and you were stronger each and every workout? That shit was amazing. Where'd it go?
josh81
Jiu-Jitsu Blue
Re: Re: I love muscle memory
It's amazing how sometimes experience causes a negative effect on the self esteem...
string_bean00 said:Is it kind of like that exciting time when you first picked up the weights and you were stronger each and every workout? That shit was amazing. Where'd it go?
It's amazing how sometimes experience causes a negative effect on the self esteem...
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Insane_Man
Guest
Here's my theory on muscle memory:
Fibers lose size quickly, but numbers of myonuclei diminish slowly.
Thoughts?
Fibers lose size quickly, but numbers of myonuclei diminish slowly.
Thoughts?
hornedfrogs07
New member
Insane_Man said:
Yes, fibers do lose size very quickly (atrophy) if not given stimulation....However, you never lose the number of nuclei in the muscle cells. When you lift, the strain and repair process that the muscles undergo requires them to form new nuclei in the skeletal muscle, a process that isn't seen in any other type of muscle. Skeletal muscle is multinucleated, meaning that each cell may have many nuclei within it, due to the actin/myosin filament interactions requiring more stimulation. As you get bigger, the fibers/cells volumize nicely, but really don't form new nuclei at a great pace. If you can find a way to make the body grow new nuclei at a faster pace(HGH therapy maybe???) you will form new cells, which in turn will lead to more size, which you will not as readily lose during periods of reduced stimulation.
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string_bean00
Guest
hornedfrogsAT said:
If this was Elite, I'd give you karma. Good post.
hornedfrogs07
New member
string_bean00 said:
Pseudo-Karma accepted. Thank you.
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Insane_Man
Guest
hornedfrogsAT said:
AAS and creatine
I'm pretty sure that myonuclei eventually drop off though.
hornedfrogs07
New member
Bast said:
Bast, glad you beat me to this.....you were a hell of a lot nicer than I woulda been with the first reply to that ignorant statement.
Insane, you truly must be, because creatine does NOTHING in the way of increasing nuclei. Creatine works on 2 fronts: A) it forces water into the muscles, which in turn increase the volume/LBM, which makes size minisculely larger, and B) Creatine Phosphate (CP) is absolutely necessary for muscular contraction. As one exercises, (read: repeated muscular contractions) the CP supply is gradually depleted, which leads to an increasing inablity to contract with the same force you started with. Supplementing with creatine monohydrate (which attaches to a phosphate group in the body and becomes CP) provides the muscles with extra CP, which allows them to contract with more force for longer periods, thus allowing you to move more weight for more reps, which will help to more fully tax the muscles, leading to more growth.
In fact, all the creatine the body needs can be obtained from 4-6 ounces of RED MEAT every day. Everything over that is just pissed out. (I take 5g/ED just because the school cafeteria very very rarely offers red meat, so I need the supplementation).
Insane, next time you decide to spout off your mouth, do your research first. I'm not even going to go into how Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) works to increase muscle size....... DO YOUR RESEARCH.
hornedfrogs07
New member
Bump for insane man's reply.
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Insane_Man
Guest
It doesn't increase the rate at which "new' nuclei are produced, but it has been shown to increas the rate of satellite cell donation (satellite cells----->myonuclei).
The effects of ergogenic compounds on myogenic satellite cells.
Vierck JL, Icenoggle DL, Bucci L, Dodson MV.
Muscle Biology Laboratory, Department of Animal Sciences, Washington State University, Pullman, WA 99164, USA.
PURPOSE: A series of studies were conducted in which compounds commonly shown to be ergogenic aids for strength athletes if taken orally were evaluated for their ability to directly induce postnatal muscle stem cell proliferation or differentiation/fusion in vitro. METHODS: Compounds tested were creatine monohydrate, creatine pyruvate, L-glutamine, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione, Ma Huang (Ephedra sinensis) extract, and Zhi Shi (Citrus aurantium) extract. Dulbecco's modified eagle medium, supplemented with minimal levels of serum and antibiotics, was used as the initial vehicle for the test compounds. Subsequently, a defined treatment medium termed ITTC was used. Satellite cells were exposed to the test compounds for the indicated times and then evaluated by counting mononucleated and multinucleated (fused) cells. RESULTS: In serum-containing media, none of the treatment groups displayed increased proliferation over that of the control. However, in the differentiation cultures, 0.10% creatine monohydrate increased differentiation over that of the control cultures. When 0.10% creatine monohydrate was added to defined media formulations, all treatments but one demonstrated increased differentiation over the 0.5% serum control. Time course experiments, which followed the effect of 0.10% creatine monohydrate contained in ITTC defined media over 120 h, suggested that cells exposed to this treatment differentiated earlier and to a greater level than cells exposed to ITTC alone. CONCLUSIONS: Creatine in the monohydrate form induced differentiation of myogenic satellite cells. Other agents examined did not increase satellite cell proliferation or differentiation. These results provide initial evidence for a mechanistic understanding of observed effects in vivo of increased muscular size and strength from creatine supplementation.
The effects of ergogenic compounds on myogenic satellite cells.
Vierck JL, Icenoggle DL, Bucci L, Dodson MV.
Muscle Biology Laboratory, Department of Animal Sciences, Washington State University, Pullman, WA 99164, USA.
PURPOSE: A series of studies were conducted in which compounds commonly shown to be ergogenic aids for strength athletes if taken orally were evaluated for their ability to directly induce postnatal muscle stem cell proliferation or differentiation/fusion in vitro. METHODS: Compounds tested were creatine monohydrate, creatine pyruvate, L-glutamine, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione, Ma Huang (Ephedra sinensis) extract, and Zhi Shi (Citrus aurantium) extract. Dulbecco's modified eagle medium, supplemented with minimal levels of serum and antibiotics, was used as the initial vehicle for the test compounds. Subsequently, a defined treatment medium termed ITTC was used. Satellite cells were exposed to the test compounds for the indicated times and then evaluated by counting mononucleated and multinucleated (fused) cells. RESULTS: In serum-containing media, none of the treatment groups displayed increased proliferation over that of the control. However, in the differentiation cultures, 0.10% creatine monohydrate increased differentiation over that of the control cultures. When 0.10% creatine monohydrate was added to defined media formulations, all treatments but one demonstrated increased differentiation over the 0.5% serum control. Time course experiments, which followed the effect of 0.10% creatine monohydrate contained in ITTC defined media over 120 h, suggested that cells exposed to this treatment differentiated earlier and to a greater level than cells exposed to ITTC alone. CONCLUSIONS: Creatine in the monohydrate form induced differentiation of myogenic satellite cells. Other agents examined did not increase satellite cell proliferation or differentiation. These results provide initial evidence for a mechanistic understanding of observed effects in vivo of increased muscular size and strength from creatine supplementation.
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Insane_Man
Guest
Another...
Dietary creatine monohydrate supplementation increases satellite cell mitotic activity during compensatory hypertrophy.
Dangott B, Schultz E, Mozdziak PE.
Department of Anatomy, University of Wisconsin-Medical School, Madison, USA.
Nutritional status influences muscle growth and athletic performance, but little is known about the effect of nutritional supplements, such as creatine, on satellite cell mitotic activity. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of oral creatine supplementation on muscle growth, compensatory hypertrophy, and satellite cell mitotic activity. Compensatory hypertrophy was induced in the rat plantaris muscle by removing the soleus and gastrocnemius muscles. Immediately following surgery, a group of six rats was provided with elevated levels of creatine monohydrate in their diet. Another group of six rats was maintained as a non-supplemented control group. Twelve days following surgery, all rats were implanted with mini-osmotic pumps containing the thymidine analog 5-bromo-2'-deoxyuridine (BrdU) to label mitotically active satellite cells. Four weeks after the initial surgery the rats were killed, plantaris muscles were removed and weighed. Subsequently, BrdU-labeled and non-BrdU-labeled nuclei were identified on enzymatically isolated myofiber segments. Muscle mass and myofiber diameters were larger (P < 0.05) in the muscles that underwent compensatory hypertrophy compared to the control muscles, but there were no differences between muscles from creatine-supplemented and non-creatine-supplemented rats. Similarly, compensatory hypertrophy resulted in an increased (P < 0.05) number of BrdU-labeled myofiber nuclei, but creatine supplementation in combination with compensatory hypertrophy resulted in a higher (P < 0.05) number of BrdU-labeled myofiber nuclei compared to compensatory hypertrophy without creatine supplementation. Thus, creatine supplementation in combination with an increased functional load results in increased satellite cell mitotic activity.
PMID: 10683092 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Dietary creatine monohydrate supplementation increases satellite cell mitotic activity during compensatory hypertrophy.
Dangott B, Schultz E, Mozdziak PE.
Department of Anatomy, University of Wisconsin-Medical School, Madison, USA.
Nutritional status influences muscle growth and athletic performance, but little is known about the effect of nutritional supplements, such as creatine, on satellite cell mitotic activity. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of oral creatine supplementation on muscle growth, compensatory hypertrophy, and satellite cell mitotic activity. Compensatory hypertrophy was induced in the rat plantaris muscle by removing the soleus and gastrocnemius muscles. Immediately following surgery, a group of six rats was provided with elevated levels of creatine monohydrate in their diet. Another group of six rats was maintained as a non-supplemented control group. Twelve days following surgery, all rats were implanted with mini-osmotic pumps containing the thymidine analog 5-bromo-2'-deoxyuridine (BrdU) to label mitotically active satellite cells. Four weeks after the initial surgery the rats were killed, plantaris muscles were removed and weighed. Subsequently, BrdU-labeled and non-BrdU-labeled nuclei were identified on enzymatically isolated myofiber segments. Muscle mass and myofiber diameters were larger (P < 0.05) in the muscles that underwent compensatory hypertrophy compared to the control muscles, but there were no differences between muscles from creatine-supplemented and non-creatine-supplemented rats. Similarly, compensatory hypertrophy resulted in an increased (P < 0.05) number of BrdU-labeled myofiber nuclei, but creatine supplementation in combination with compensatory hypertrophy resulted in a higher (P < 0.05) number of BrdU-labeled myofiber nuclei compared to compensatory hypertrophy without creatine supplementation. Thus, creatine supplementation in combination with an increased functional load results in increased satellite cell mitotic activity.
PMID: 10683092 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
hornedfrogs07
New member
Insane_Man said:
The part in bold there, both what you had and what I added, blows a huge hole in that theory. Increasing the functional load, i.e. weight, will cause the increase in satellite cells, regardless of creatine supplementation or not.
