IGF-1 - MGF cross tolerance?
- Thread starter Stone
- Start date
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
They can work together...but it depends on what form of each you are using. MGF and LR3 work well together, or Peg MGF and DES work well together.
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
I'm setting up a little run of my own with lr3 and MGF. I plan on pinning 100mcg's of lr3 pre workout (about an hour before) then pinning 200mcg's of MGF Post workout, split bi-laterally into the muscle group worked that day. (so 100mcg's left side, 100mcg's right)
wouldnt the LR3 cancel out the MGF?? the LR3 will last 6-12hrs. so you pin it pre WO, than 3hrs later you done at the gym and hit MGF.....
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
I've seen arguments from both sides in that regards.. and the conclusion/opinion that I have come to is that the IGF will not displace or blunt the MGF administered Post workout.
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
Here's a good read that Ezskanken found and posted up on another forum.. kind of appropriate.. it's a bit lengthy, and a little old.. but good.
Dat***8217;s New Method of using PEG-MGF & IGF-1 LR3
Proliferation and Differentiation. What do these two words mean, how do these processes promote muscle growth, and how do we optimize them through the use of PEG-MGF and IGF-1? Please allow me to break this down into its most simple form. MGF is the hormone responsible for expanding our pool of stem cells. The expansion of these cells is what***8217;s known as proliferation. Proliferation is the 1st step in the process of forming new muscle cells. Once these stems cells have recieved the message to proliferate through the actions of MGF, what type of cells they become, whether muscle or otherwise, depends on the message they later recieve from other hormones.
IGF-1 is what***8217;s know as a differentiator. Differentiation is the process responsible for turning immature stem cells into a defined cell type. When a stem cell is exposed to the actions of IGF-1, the cell type created is a muscle cell. However, it is very important to note that each of these processes must take place at the correct time. If one process is begun before the other has finished its work, either the entire process is short-circuited, or partial results are achieved. When a muscle(s) is exposed to stress (such as weight training), it***8217;s first response is to produce localized MGF. MGF is produced only in the muscle, not in the liver like GH mediated IGF-1 production. After training, It is vital that MGF be allowed to fully perform its function of proliferation before IGF-1 is introduced into the system. Otherwise, the inhibitory actions IGF1 will immediately halt the proliferation process and reduce the total number of stem cells available for differentiation into muscle cells. In other words, introducing IGF-1 at the wrong time will limit our rate of muscle growth.
In the past, the typical maner of administering PEG MGF and IGF-1 would be to use 200-300 mg of PEG-MGF immediately post-workout 2X weekly, followed by an injection of IGF-1 the other 5 days per week. In principle this theory is sound, as the PEG-MGF will expand the number of available stem cells, which can then subsequently be differentiated by IGF-1 the following day. However, there are 3 significant problems with this method of use. For one, since PEG-MGF is typically injected only 2 X per week, the BB***8217;r is usually going to choose to inject it after training the bodyparts he most wants to improve, but what happens if he also trains a bodypart on the days he adminsters IGF-1? Being that IGF-1 is typicallly administered on the days PEG-MGF isn***8217;t (which is usually 5 days per week), it is highly likley that the BB***8217;r is going to be training on at least some of the days he adminsters IGF-1. That means that on those days, the growth process involving these growth factors will be short-circuited, due to the inhibitory actions of exogenous IGF-1, and the end result will be less than optimal muscle growth.
The second issue which arises due to the current pattern of use, is that by using PEG-MGF on non-consecutive days 2X per week, the proliferation process will always be cut short due to the constant interloping of exogenous IGF-1. Because of this, the number of available stem cell will never grow very large and the potential for differenetiation will remain limited. The 3rd issue is in regards to PEG-MGF dosing***8230;.it is too light. It is now proposed that using 2 mg per week is much closer to the ideal dosage than the commonly prescribed 400 mcg per week. If we use prior research as a gauage for determining proper dosing, it would point to our current dosing guidelines as being inadequate. It is a certainty that higher dosages of PEG-MGF are necessary in order to maximize stem cell proliferation. Although user experiences in this dosing range are currently minimal, what has been witnessed does appear to confirm this. In addition, the proposal is scientifically sound.
Now that I have explained the logic for why the older methods of administration are believed to be flawed in their approach, I will go over how to implement the new method of administration. The PEG-MGF molecule is always used over standard MGF, as MGF has a very short active life, being only minutes in length, while PEG-MGF will stay active for days. This enables the PEG version to deliver a much more pronounced effect. It is also important to remember that the PEG attachment does not alter the effects of the MGF molecule. The PEG attachment acts purely to extend its duration of action. As for what form of IGF-1 should be chosen, I believe IGF-1 LR3 is the superior choice only because of its greatly extended active life, which is about 24 hours in length. DES IGF-1 is a very potent form of IGF-1, being about 4X as potent as IGF-1 LR3 on a mcg basis, but its active life is only about 20 minutes. So, unless one was willing and able to administer DES many times per day, LR3 remains the better option for whole-body growth. DES is superior for site enhancment and will also deliver systematic benefits, but when it comes to a single daily injection, DES cannot trump LR3 when it comes to its whole-body benefits.
In contrast to most other injectable drugs, PEG-MGF cannot be administered with a singular inject. Several micro-injects must be used because even though PEG-MGF is systematic in its effects, the injected muscle will still recieve a greater amount of benefit. Why? While both steroid esters and the PEG attachemnt serve primarily to extend the active life of the steroid, there are critical differences between the two. With esterfied AAS, the ester must first be cleaved from the steroid before it is able to attach to the AR and cause muscle growth. This is why esterfied steroids do not cause site growth (although some users think they do due to the inflammation and subsqeuent swelling which occurs), as the steroid will already have entered circulation and become systemtaic prior to the ester being cleaved from the steroid molecule. However, unlike AAS, the PEG portion of the drug does not need to be cleaved off before it is able to attach to its receptor site and deliver its message. Also unlike AAS, the MGF molecule (whether it is MGF or PEG-MGF) communicates through cell to cell interaction. Once the PEG-MGF comes in contact with a muscle cell (such as during an injection), the affected muscle cell will relay the same signal to the adjoining muscle cells. More so, this signal will eventually stop being passed along to adjoining cells, making a single inject unsuitable for treating the entire muscle.
Another characteristic of PEG-MGF, which plays a role in the way it is administered, is the fact that it causes a disproportionate degree of muscle growth in the injected muscle, compared to the rest of the body. However, with PEG-MGF being systematic in nature, one might ask why this happens, being that the compound will eventually spread around to the entire body anyway. This is a question I would have to research, so I cannot answer it right now. Still, I speculate that there may be 3 reasons for this. For one, the injected muscle is directly exposed to the entire amount of the drug on a first come basis. Two, the compound will immediately begin attaching to receptor sites as soon as it is injected, likley using up a substantial portion of the drug before it has a chance to become systematic. Three, due to the micro-injection technique, which is explained below, the entire muscle is exposed to the actions of the drug in large quantities.
Below I will lay out the micro-injection technique. It is a pain in the ass to be sure, but due to the use of 30-31g. insulin needles, this process is made much more tolerable. The micro-injection process involves injecting a small portion of the drug into multiple locations within the same muscle. In the case of smaller bodyparts, this can be as many as 14-16 injections, split bi-laterally. In larger bodyparts, 20 injections split bilaterally is more appropriate. Remember, MGF communicates its actions cell to cell, so this micro-injection technique must be incorporated into one***8217;s protocol if optimal results are desired. Using a small amount of injections will drastically limit the amount ofuscle cells which are exposed to the actions of the MGF***8230;and a single injection will severely limit the drug***8217;s ability to turn on stem cell proliferation. Now, before anyone is turned away by the sheer volume of injections, it should be noted that this only needs to be performed twice weekly. In addition, the use of 30-31g. 1/2 inch insulin pins reduces scar tissue build-up to less than what would be experienced with just a couple injections using a 22 g. needle. the pain factor is almost a non-issue, as it should be near painless. Lastly, this only needs to be performed for 4 weeks, after which point MGF injections cease and are then followed by a single sub-q IGF-1 LR3 injection per day for the next 4 weeks. It is up to the individual if they want to repeat the program after its conclusion.
Here is an example of how one might target their chest with this program:
Weeks 1-4
Day #1 (post-workout): Inject 1 mg of PEG-MGF into the pecs. Split this 1 mg up into twenty 50 mcg injections and place 10 injects on the right side of the chest, followed by 10 injects in the left side of the chest. Make sure each injection is placed fairly evenly apart. Use a 30-31g. 1/2 inch syringe.
Day #2 (about 3-4 days after day 1): Same as above.
Weeks 5-8
Days 1-28: IGF-1 LR3 @ 100 mcg once daily
Dat***8217;s New Method of using PEG-MGF & IGF-1 LR3
Proliferation and Differentiation. What do these two words mean, how do these processes promote muscle growth, and how do we optimize them through the use of PEG-MGF and IGF-1? Please allow me to break this down into its most simple form. MGF is the hormone responsible for expanding our pool of stem cells. The expansion of these cells is what***8217;s known as proliferation. Proliferation is the 1st step in the process of forming new muscle cells. Once these stems cells have recieved the message to proliferate through the actions of MGF, what type of cells they become, whether muscle or otherwise, depends on the message they later recieve from other hormones.
IGF-1 is what***8217;s know as a differentiator. Differentiation is the process responsible for turning immature stem cells into a defined cell type. When a stem cell is exposed to the actions of IGF-1, the cell type created is a muscle cell. However, it is very important to note that each of these processes must take place at the correct time. If one process is begun before the other has finished its work, either the entire process is short-circuited, or partial results are achieved. When a muscle(s) is exposed to stress (such as weight training), it***8217;s first response is to produce localized MGF. MGF is produced only in the muscle, not in the liver like GH mediated IGF-1 production. After training, It is vital that MGF be allowed to fully perform its function of proliferation before IGF-1 is introduced into the system. Otherwise, the inhibitory actions IGF1 will immediately halt the proliferation process and reduce the total number of stem cells available for differentiation into muscle cells. In other words, introducing IGF-1 at the wrong time will limit our rate of muscle growth.
In the past, the typical maner of administering PEG MGF and IGF-1 would be to use 200-300 mg of PEG-MGF immediately post-workout 2X weekly, followed by an injection of IGF-1 the other 5 days per week. In principle this theory is sound, as the PEG-MGF will expand the number of available stem cells, which can then subsequently be differentiated by IGF-1 the following day. However, there are 3 significant problems with this method of use. For one, since PEG-MGF is typically injected only 2 X per week, the BB***8217;r is usually going to choose to inject it after training the bodyparts he most wants to improve, but what happens if he also trains a bodypart on the days he adminsters IGF-1? Being that IGF-1 is typicallly administered on the days PEG-MGF isn***8217;t (which is usually 5 days per week), it is highly likley that the BB***8217;r is going to be training on at least some of the days he adminsters IGF-1. That means that on those days, the growth process involving these growth factors will be short-circuited, due to the inhibitory actions of exogenous IGF-1, and the end result will be less than optimal muscle growth.
The second issue which arises due to the current pattern of use, is that by using PEG-MGF on non-consecutive days 2X per week, the proliferation process will always be cut short due to the constant interloping of exogenous IGF-1. Because of this, the number of available stem cell will never grow very large and the potential for differenetiation will remain limited. The 3rd issue is in regards to PEG-MGF dosing***8230;.it is too light. It is now proposed that using 2 mg per week is much closer to the ideal dosage than the commonly prescribed 400 mcg per week. If we use prior research as a gauage for determining proper dosing, it would point to our current dosing guidelines as being inadequate. It is a certainty that higher dosages of PEG-MGF are necessary in order to maximize stem cell proliferation. Although user experiences in this dosing range are currently minimal, what has been witnessed does appear to confirm this. In addition, the proposal is scientifically sound.
Now that I have explained the logic for why the older methods of administration are believed to be flawed in their approach, I will go over how to implement the new method of administration. The PEG-MGF molecule is always used over standard MGF, as MGF has a very short active life, being only minutes in length, while PEG-MGF will stay active for days. This enables the PEG version to deliver a much more pronounced effect. It is also important to remember that the PEG attachment does not alter the effects of the MGF molecule. The PEG attachment acts purely to extend its duration of action. As for what form of IGF-1 should be chosen, I believe IGF-1 LR3 is the superior choice only because of its greatly extended active life, which is about 24 hours in length. DES IGF-1 is a very potent form of IGF-1, being about 4X as potent as IGF-1 LR3 on a mcg basis, but its active life is only about 20 minutes. So, unless one was willing and able to administer DES many times per day, LR3 remains the better option for whole-body growth. DES is superior for site enhancment and will also deliver systematic benefits, but when it comes to a single daily injection, DES cannot trump LR3 when it comes to its whole-body benefits.
In contrast to most other injectable drugs, PEG-MGF cannot be administered with a singular inject. Several micro-injects must be used because even though PEG-MGF is systematic in its effects, the injected muscle will still recieve a greater amount of benefit. Why? While both steroid esters and the PEG attachemnt serve primarily to extend the active life of the steroid, there are critical differences between the two. With esterfied AAS, the ester must first be cleaved from the steroid before it is able to attach to the AR and cause muscle growth. This is why esterfied steroids do not cause site growth (although some users think they do due to the inflammation and subsqeuent swelling which occurs), as the steroid will already have entered circulation and become systemtaic prior to the ester being cleaved from the steroid molecule. However, unlike AAS, the PEG portion of the drug does not need to be cleaved off before it is able to attach to its receptor site and deliver its message. Also unlike AAS, the MGF molecule (whether it is MGF or PEG-MGF) communicates through cell to cell interaction. Once the PEG-MGF comes in contact with a muscle cell (such as during an injection), the affected muscle cell will relay the same signal to the adjoining muscle cells. More so, this signal will eventually stop being passed along to adjoining cells, making a single inject unsuitable for treating the entire muscle.
Another characteristic of PEG-MGF, which plays a role in the way it is administered, is the fact that it causes a disproportionate degree of muscle growth in the injected muscle, compared to the rest of the body. However, with PEG-MGF being systematic in nature, one might ask why this happens, being that the compound will eventually spread around to the entire body anyway. This is a question I would have to research, so I cannot answer it right now. Still, I speculate that there may be 3 reasons for this. For one, the injected muscle is directly exposed to the entire amount of the drug on a first come basis. Two, the compound will immediately begin attaching to receptor sites as soon as it is injected, likley using up a substantial portion of the drug before it has a chance to become systematic. Three, due to the micro-injection technique, which is explained below, the entire muscle is exposed to the actions of the drug in large quantities.
Below I will lay out the micro-injection technique. It is a pain in the ass to be sure, but due to the use of 30-31g. insulin needles, this process is made much more tolerable. The micro-injection process involves injecting a small portion of the drug into multiple locations within the same muscle. In the case of smaller bodyparts, this can be as many as 14-16 injections, split bi-laterally. In larger bodyparts, 20 injections split bilaterally is more appropriate. Remember, MGF communicates its actions cell to cell, so this micro-injection technique must be incorporated into one***8217;s protocol if optimal results are desired. Using a small amount of injections will drastically limit the amount ofuscle cells which are exposed to the actions of the MGF***8230;and a single injection will severely limit the drug***8217;s ability to turn on stem cell proliferation. Now, before anyone is turned away by the sheer volume of injections, it should be noted that this only needs to be performed twice weekly. In addition, the use of 30-31g. 1/2 inch insulin pins reduces scar tissue build-up to less than what would be experienced with just a couple injections using a 22 g. needle. the pain factor is almost a non-issue, as it should be near painless. Lastly, this only needs to be performed for 4 weeks, after which point MGF injections cease and are then followed by a single sub-q IGF-1 LR3 injection per day for the next 4 weeks. It is up to the individual if they want to repeat the program after its conclusion.
Here is an example of how one might target their chest with this program:
Weeks 1-4
Day #1 (post-workout): Inject 1 mg of PEG-MGF into the pecs. Split this 1 mg up into twenty 50 mcg injections and place 10 injects on the right side of the chest, followed by 10 injects in the left side of the chest. Make sure each injection is placed fairly evenly apart. Use a 30-31g. 1/2 inch syringe.
Day #2 (about 3-4 days after day 1): Same as above.
Weeks 5-8
Days 1-28: IGF-1 LR3 @ 100 mcg once daily
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
I f'd that up.. MGF and LR3 are both going to be administered Post workout.
Here's a very cool cycle to check out
Designed by "OldSchoolLifter" – The Triple B
This cycle is a bit different, on workout days the use of GHRP-and GHRH will act in place of Synthetic GH pulsing serum levels to over 12 all the while increasing IGF levels on days when you need the most WORKOUT DAY!, but let’s not neglect OFF DAYS, because we have the Use of Peg-Mgf, which can cause growth in all muscle groups rather than its counterpart MGF which only affects the muscle pinned in.
Peps used in cycle
GHRP – 2
CJC-1295-w/o Dac
DES
MGF
LR3
Peg-Mgf
Workout Days: 4 per week for 7 weeks
Pre Workout
- 15 min pre 200mcg DES Bi-Lat
Post Workout –
- 15 min Post workout 300mcg MGF Bi-Lat
- 15 min after MGF Dose GHRP/CJC Combo
- 20 Min After GHRP Combo Dose 120mcg IGF-LR3 Sub Q
- EAT! EAT! EAT!
Non Workout Days
- 11:30am Dose PEG –MGF 200mcg Sub Q
Workout Days:
- 200mcg GHRP-2 & 200mcg CJC-1295 w/o Dac ( Morning – Post Workout 15min after MGF Dose – Pre Bed)
shainesboostin
New member
I have seen some run it like this...Seems simple, but may be a bad idea?
IMMEDIATLY PWO=MGF
Next morning (day following training)=LR3
IMMEDIATLY PWO=MGF
Next morning (day following training)=LR3
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
The PWO mgf is perfect.. and the lr3 the day following isn't bad.. but you would benefit greatly from administering IGF roughly 20 mins after MGF administration.
shainesboostin
New member
Dang, I just made a thread in regard to my protocol before I saw this post.
My bad! Thanks for the info tho.
Also, whats your opinion of MGF solo, vs MGF with IGF?
and visa versa: IGF solo, or MGF with IGF?
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
They are very similiar.. in fact MGF is simply a variant of IGF-1. It's original name is IGF-1ec, and is a version of IGF that is produced locally in the muscle as part of the anabolic repair response to resistance training.
With that out of the way.. lol. They are both amazing peptides individual, but when you pair them up, one picks up where the other has left off.
Stone
Hazardous
Great Stuff guys,
Pitt that was a great read, especially the proliferation and differentiation aspect!
I too have heard that IGF will blunt MGF activity. So I'd go MGF, then IGF in whatever form. That article only seems to confirm that.
I think MGF pwo, then LR3 20-30 min later would be very affective...
I see alot of peoples routines with these peptides around their workout, but I'd love to hear more about PEG-MGF and LR3 dosing not centered around workouts...
Pitt that was a great read, especially the proliferation and differentiation aspect!
I too have heard that IGF will blunt MGF activity. So I'd go MGF, then IGF in whatever form. That article only seems to confirm that.
I think MGF pwo, then LR3 20-30 min later would be very affective...
I see alot of peoples routines with these peptides around their workout, but I'd love to hear more about PEG-MGF and LR3 dosing not centered around workouts...
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
I agree with you..
As for Peg MGF and lr3 not centered around workouts.. well.. to be honest, I always center my setup around the gym. And then use Peg MGF on the off days. If you give me an idea of what you want to get out the peptides, I could probably help you out a little more.
Stone
Hazardous
I'm mainly going for satellite cell creation that can be filled in later...
Sounds like MGF is going to set the stage for IGF to create these much more efficiently.
PEG MGF on off days sounds like a good idea to set the stage for this.
I normally go w/ 100mcg DES pre and 50mcg LR3 post workout.
I find that any extended use of LR3 seems to grow areas I'm not looking to get bigger. Gut ect...
What kind of PEG MGF and MGF dosing do you usually go w/ Pitt?
Sounds like MGF is going to set the stage for IGF to create these much more efficiently.
PEG MGF on off days sounds like a good idea to set the stage for this.
I normally go w/ 100mcg DES pre and 50mcg LR3 post workout.
I find that any extended use of LR3 seems to grow areas I'm not looking to get bigger. Gut ect...
What kind of PEG MGF and MGF dosing do you usually go w/ Pitt?
Phatbastard
Knowledge Equals Results
Dont by the gut getting bigger with LR3 for a moment.
As for how MGF's and LR3 should be used why wouldn't one rune them as your body produces them naturaly?
That would be MGF's Imediately post work out and LR3 aprox 20 min later. The goal is to bust these levels at a time when your body is capitalizing on them!
Phatbastard
Knowledge Equals Results
Glad u cought that I was about to slap u
Phatbastard
Knowledge Equals Results
Why would you want to see them not centered around work outs? Thats when the best utilized.
Thats like sayin I'm going to use some nose spray because I MIGHT get stuffy? Hope its still affective when I do. Makes no sense.
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
It's being on all these different boards.. I think I mixed a DES conversation with this one. Get a little fried every once in a while. lol Thanks for not slapping me.
Pittsburgh63
Labpe Peptide Rep
I don't buy in to the gut growth and crap with the lr3.. a lot of that stuff is a list of potential sides that are astronomically unlikely. I've been hitting MGF at 400mcg's split bi-lat pwo and 300mcg's peg mgf on off days. Both are higher than what most guys use. Normally both right around 200mcg's.
