Long confusing haul on trt so far...

[bowhunter01]

Hello,
My name is Jacob and I am new to this forum. I have several questions I am hoping someone here with knowledge of trt and hypogonadism can answer for me. Im 31 years old. Back in October I decided to see my primary doctor and talk with him about symptoms I had been having for quite some time, ED, lethargy, brain fog, no motivation and no morning erections for quite some time now. My doctor decided to run test for low t and thyroid test. Tests were done at 2:30 p.m. The test results came back and my t level was at 230 free t was also low, thyroid was fine. For 2 months I did injections of test cyp, starting at 200 every two weeks then after some talking with the doc switched it to 100 per week. I then decided to see a endo to because I wanted an answer to why I had low t to begin with. She order me off the injections to run tests on the pituitary lh and fsh levels. From the time I stopped injections to the time she did the lab tests it was 17 days. Now my question is 17 days enough time for my ls and fsh to kickstart again? Those lab results were 148 total t and my ls and fsh were both 0.1. My endo says this indicates a pituitary disorder and ran an mri, in which they found a microadenoma next to pituitary. She said to start injections again. I am just worried the 17 days was not enough time for my pituitary to start again and that is why my ls and fsh numbers were so low? Just looking on some advice, whether to start treatment again and go with the secondary hypogonadism or stay of trt for longer and see what happens with my ls and fsh numbers.. Thanks for any advice.

 

[bowhunter01]

bump really need some helpful insight here..... 17 days enough time for pituitary gland to raise lh and fsh levels ??

 

[Mprtz]

bump really need some helpful insight here..... 17 days enough time for pituitary gland to raise lh and fsh levels ??

Wish I could answer definitively.... from my limited knowledge i'd say it's on the edge.

 

[bowhunter01]

That's what I was thinking, she said my ls and fsh numbers should of rebounded a little bit but they actually went down a point instead... Not sure what to do here.

 

[jomamma007]

bump really need some helpful insight here..... 17 days enough time for pituitary gland to raise lh and fsh levels ??

No the testosterone is still in your system, god endos are so dumb your lh and fsh wouldn't be that low

 

[Mprtz]

No the testosterone is still in your system, god endos are so dumb your lh and fsh wouldn't be that low

Usual PCT protocol for Cyp is 2 weeks after last injection... 17 days is just over two weeks. I was basing my comment on that.
Also, this was a TRT dose, so it will have fallen to a much lower level than end of cycle.

 

[bowhunter01]

what about my test being low on the first lab when I started back in October.. It was at 230, dipshit doctor didn't take ls and fsh numbers then, but that's when I started treatment first. Would you guy just keep going on treatment or discontinue it and see what happens? My last injection was on 75 if that matters at all.
Weird thing is I've heard of this happening and guys fsh and lh levels climbing after only 10 days. When I was on test cyp my lh and fsh numbers were 0.2

 

[HammerT1]

Did your doctors ever check your e levels? I don't think 17 days is long enough. I wanted to prove something to my doctor so I got tests done right at three week mark when he was doing T injections every 3 weeks. I was shut down hard. Were you ever taking any meds before or during when other issues were happening? Certain meds are notorious for shutting down T levels along with causing symptoms you described. Stress is another one. Pain meds n stress shut me down hard. Most doctors aren't even aware that meds they are prescribing affect T levels.
I would expect you will need to wait a bit longer or do a restart and then get tested.

Keep reading ad learning. I find more often it's me giving my doc the info he needs to best help me. I'm fine with that since he listens and will go along with me. Others just refuse to listen or do what's been in my in my best intrest. Sadly doctors don't get properly educated on t issues or trt.

 

[bowhunter01]

No I wasn't doing any meds when I first got tested. I never was able to make good gains in gym either. I could get it up most of the time but started having more ed issues and never woke up with morning wood or nocturnal wood. I just don't want to wait longer for trt and put myself through more misery but at the same time don't want to be on trt if I don't have to be.

 

[HammerT1]

I would get your estrogen levels checked too. I have more issues if my e gets too low or high then where my T levels are at. Sadly, it took me a bit to learn that. My doctor said it was not necessary when we first started treatinge for low T. Wish I had that tested early on. High prolactin can also cause sides effects.

 

[bowhunter01]

Yea with these last labs my prolactin was checked and it came back normal. I guess my question to you guys is the first lab back in October enough to indicate low t and start treatment and if not is the second test even worth looking at since I had only been off test cyp for 17 days. According to this endo it is?? Also is a microadenoma anything that would cause low t?

 

[HammerT1]

I wound say a month. At 15 days I was still shut down hard. But everyone is going to be a little diffent. A lot of people start low T treatments without ever getting a diagnosis. In my case I had figured out my issue and why I had doctor order labs.

I would prefer to see more trouble shooting, a possible restart attempt and if all else fails proper trt with all meds needed and regular testing.

No idea about the other thing you mentioned.

 

[bowhunter01]

My GP ordered total test and free all of which came back low, total t was 230. What do you mean by troubleshooting?

 

[HammerT1]

I've read a lot of guys go see a doc for what sounds like low T. (Myself included but I had figured out cause before hand) They order tests and doc starts them on half assed trt therapy. 3 years later guys are asking how to do a restart because they are tired of trt. Many never even get their levels straightened out to know what proper trt can do for them. They are just ready to give up.

Turns out they did a pro-hormone cycle that had them shut down (they weren't aware it would shut them down or they thought the bogus bunk natural trt boosters and pct stuff that GNC sells which doesn't work would restart them), a nasty stressful divorce, crapy job with long hours, or whatever lowers their T levels, certain medications or medical conditions were actually the root of the low T.

If those issues had been resolved they may have never even needed trt or may have been a candidate for a restart protocol instead of trt to see if they could get their T levels back up.

The way it is now, the pharma reps push their pumps and gels on the doctors. Proper labs are usually near ordered and a few weeks to months later they feel like crap because it's not working. They come here tell their story (me too) and learn about what works, what doesn't and what's really needed for proper trt.


In my case it was labs that showed my e levels, needing a higher does of T, splitting my weekly dose into two injections (that really helped me), an AI and Hcg. Plus learning on what days to take my blood work versus when I pin . It's been a game changer for me.

But it was a long long road. I had over 2 and a half years before I ever got a decent steady dose of T in my system on a regular basis. I ended up going to a trt clinic desperate for help. I had numerous doctors telling me it wouldn't matter. One doc did say yeah, get it all in check ASAP but he was expecting me to have other doctors do it. I had doctors amazed at the changes proper trt made. Some are actually taught it didn't matter depending on their fields. My primary is a good doc but like most he didn't receive enough or proper use of trt and dosing for trt. I was lucky since he was willing to listen. My protocol follows what works very well for me. We order the test not on a whim anymore but on the right days or I bring in my own labs when we haven't met our deductible since I can get them cheaper elsewhere. My wife works in the medical industry. She was at a dinner with a bunch of specialist one night. They asked how I was doing knowing about my injury and issues. She told them a lot better since I had gotten my trt issues straightened out. She pins me on days I can't bend/twist (injury related , makes for hell getting in/out of a stand) that well so she's knows my dosing. She told them and they all started giving her the same bad advice I got when I first ventured down the trt road. Again these guys are supposed to know more and it's the same bad info and advice. Granted their are some docs who know trt. At one point I even called around to the euroligists/end's is asking for their trt protocols hoping to find a doc knew how to administer proper trt. I didn't have any luck.

Not everyone needs 200mg a week. Not everyone needs an AI. But if your not checking T levels properly, not checking e levels then one wouldn't know. Then there's the hcg. Again in order to see if it's for you, one needs a doc that understands it's uses.

There's other things like Clomid etc that docs can try to raise t levels or for restarts. Trip (something, sorry forgot spelling ) it again the doc needs to understand their uses and place in trt.

 

[bowhunter01]

I think I'm going to stick with treatment this time and give it all ive got. Would you suggest a a1 and hcg? My first go around I was using liquid stane because my e level was up in the high 50s 4 days after my injection. I to was on 200 a week, this time I'm going to start lower maybe 50 two times a week. Are DIM supps any good for controlling e?

 

[HammerT1]

One of my lowest has been 113 but usually in the 200 range non t supplemtend. Having my T stable in the high 700's low 800's is just a wow feeling. 400-low 600 range and I still fell like crap. Very emotional, very negative, angry, depressed, don't know how I can keep going, etc I think mine are enhanced from chronic pain and very little sleep. But with the higher steady T levels it's so much easier to just brush off the pain and lack of sleep. I'm a horn dog and have been all my life so even if I don't want it I want it out of habit. So working issue not really a problem. But again with my t levels normal. Yup lots of morning wood, harder and I want it want it again. Even the wife noticed had to comment I get way behind the average make so using trt wasn't going to mean every day all the time.

 

[bowhunter01]

Had my test in the 750s e was at 24 when I quit and I was starting to feel better. Think my prostate was having problems with the high t level though hurt to piss sometimes and bust a nut.

 

[HammerT1]

I'm not a doctor so take this for what it's worth. NOT much!

If you pin 50mg 2 twice a week, hcg is generally recommend 250iu twice a week good luck if doc doesn't understand it's uses. My insurance covers
It since it's a fertility treatment for men. They had me pinning day or two after T injections. There pros for before and after. That you would have to research because I forget. I'm a little mixed up on that because I stopped the hcg when I got really sic. Just didn't feel like it. So as soon as I started feeling better I started pinning and stuck with that day. If you use Stane and it were me I'd keep it lower dosage to start. Take with a fat (it works better). There's threads on that if you search on here . Next time you get tested make sure you get the estrogen sensitive tests since you know your e can be an issue.
If it's just the standard female type e test my understandings is when it comes to the men's range, since were so low ok the scale you can show higher on the test the one really is. (heard the one test can be off by like 20 points) maybe there already doing the other test just make sure.

The trt clinic had me take my labs on my second day of pinning for the week but before I pinned. That has worked very well for me. If you do it on random days it's going to be all over the place if you try adjusting and there's routine for lab days.

Get tested in a month to check levels and go from there. I think it will take a bit longer before you really see the benefits. Add longer if you need to dial in your t or e levels. Both have an impact. I have more issues with the sex drive if I drop my
E too low versus it being a tad higher.


I had an issue with T does and insurance so I got dropped back down. I immediately felt like crap after that but I got sick. I ended up having to go to emergency care a few times so never got into my primary to discuss T issue since I wasn't up to the long drive. Once
I felt better and got back to my normal T dosing I would say it took about 1.5 months before I went damn I feel good again. For some reason I feel the hcg for me adds some positive too in terms of emotionally. Only thing I can attribute it to is maybe that extra spike it adds to the T levels. But I don't hear what I said often. So don't take that as being he norm.

Good luck.

 

[HammerT1]

You really have to bring what your doing to a whole new level. At least for me it has worked that way. My issue is my Hemocrit with trt goes through the roof if I don't donate blood every 8 weeks. Again something the doctors never warned me about or told me how to correct. I leaned that here.

But because of the other meds I started having other issues long before trt. I changed the way I ate. Proper vitamins, herbs n such. I never got my prostrate checked before. Now I do, I know I get that regularly. There is a few things I take that as another bonus are supposed to help prostrate health.
Do they really work? That I have no clue. Just at this time the prostrate hasn't been an issue for me. That's where keeping your doctor on top of things and regular labs, check ups really help.

Adex gave my lipids are hard time. So I stopped the adex and did things to try an improve my overall lipid profile to get ahead and stay ahead of the issue. That is what I mean about adjusting and or making changes. I know if things work out where I don't have a choice and I've been sick or recently given blood my white count is going to be high. If I was sick my liver values are slightly off. But I'm able to tell doc this is what caused that and it's nothing to worry about this time. But it took me learning that from tests and paying attention to what was going on. Doc helped with that too since he records everything. One time I got worried about a test and he's like your fine.
It's from that and we will test again in a few week or two to make sure.

Austinite has a great thread on what trt patients can take to help keep their bodies stay healthy and functioning correctly. It's worth checking out.

 

[jomamma007]

Usual PCT protocol for Cyp is 2 weeks after last injection... 17 days is just over two weeks. I was basing my comment on that.
Also, this was a TRT dose, so it will have fallen to a much lower level than end of cycle.

Most wait 3 weeks, nonetheless he'd still be shutdown considering he didn't take anything.

I'm 22 and getting off trt because I was undiagnosed, but at 31 years old I'd just bite the bullet and stay on treament. 50mgs 2x per week and wait 6 weeks to see if you need an ai. Add in HCG 250iu 2-3 week as well, get the sensitive estradiol test though. you want to avoid an ai if possible, most just end up chasing their tails using one and never quite feel dialed in.

Most men should be on trt nowadays by 40 any who, most by 30 with the crap we have in the environment. And in my opinion should be on it since puberty, I mean our test levels are something like 30% less then our grandfathers and it's just going to get worse.