Losing to much bodyfat BF

[DreDay187]

Well Ive been eating my ass off - 4000 calories a day for about 10 days and sadly I haven't gained a single pound. There are days where my veins are popping out to the extent of being able to see my heartbeat thru them. Oddy on other days veiny-ness isnt as bad.

Its certain that im not gaining any bot fat with a (much) higher calorie intake...and im pretty depressed about it....My endo explained that androgens play a different role in lean muscle to fat conversion while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) that is completely different then NOT being on TRT.

As i said in my original post, I might be unique because of this being a metabolic issue due to chemo that is a lifelong problem.

Im really struggling here because the Androgel has helped me feel SO much better. But I cant deal with walking around looking like an auschwitz victim in the process. I will go off Androgel if I cant find a solution.

Anyone have any more suggestions? anything at all beside caloric increase?

TRT is not an excuse for not being able to put on body fat. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is a therapeutic dose of testosterone that's used to put you in the normal accepted ranges. It does not make you imperious to fat gain. There are many ppl on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) on this forum, there are many ppl with low natural T, here are many ppl with high natural T, and there are ppl with supraphysiological of T elevated many times over that of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Every single one of them has the potential to get fat if the caloric intake exceeds caloric needs. I see where you said thyroid values were tested and normal, what were the values and the ranges though that you got from the tests?

Hyperthyroidism could be an explanation as can the chemo therapy having increased your metabolism (not an expert on chemo so I'm fishing here) but m money is still on the undereating or overestimating caloric intake. Put up a sample day of your diet with weights and servings of food and the macros. I bet your issue still lies in here. Post up your stats as well to get an accurate depiction of your TDEE and other important figures

 

[Durk]

I going to try and be patient in response to Docd187123's post.

Excuse??? REALLY???????????

First of all chemo DOES NOT increase your metabolism during, after, or at any stage of the process. And secondly, even if chemo did increase my metabolism (hypothetically), it would have NOTHING to do with the situation im having currently. The situation i'm having now is a METABOLIC issue that is a result of chemo reeking havoc on my body at a cellular level. Basically my fat cells have become dysfunctional as a result of mitochondrial damage, inflammation, and as a result, have a reduced ability to function. This is something that I will have to deal with for a lifetime.

I absolutely DO NOT have hyperthyroidism. As Ive said in earlier post my thyroid checked out completely normal and Ive had many thyroid tests done to date, and most particularly, AFTER chemo.

Subcutaneous fat loss IS a byproduct of androgel and of most androgens....and for someone who has a damaged ability gain subcutaneous fat, it is a problem.

I have eatin 4000 calories everyday for 10 days straight. I do know how to count calories and have been blending (with a blender) about half of my daily food intake because its easier to digest (and assimilate). My personal trainer who designed the diet is a certified nutritionist. He is completely stumped as to why im not gaining weight or fat.

Can someone who might actually know something please chime in here.

 

[Clamp]

Yeah bro, chemo drugs prevent cell division usually by fucking up with the replication of DNA during certain stages of the cell cycle. Because chemo drugs affect cell division, the cells that get hit the hardest are your fast dividing cells: hair, stomach and intestines, skin, rbc's and wbc's. That's why people who go on chemo lose their appetite and deal with nausea (fucks up your digestive system), causes hair loss (hair cells are rapidly dividing cells), skin injuries heal slower (even though the skin cells detect a lack of skin cells above them it takes them longer to divide and fill in the gap), as well as why chemo patients often become anemic and are more prone to infection/illness.

 

[Clamp]

I going to try and be patient in response to Docd187123's post.

Excuse??? REALLY???????????

First of all chemo DOES NOT increase your metabolism during, after, or at any stage of the process. And secondly, even if chemo did increase my metabolism (hypothetically), it would have NOTHING to do with the situation im having currently. The situation i'm having now is a METABOLIC issue that is a result of chemo reeking havoc on my body at a cellular level. Basically my fat cells have become dysfunctional as a result of mitochondrial damage, inflammation, and as a result, have a reduced ability to function. This is something that I will have to deal with for a lifetime.

I absolutely DO NOT have hyperthyroidism. As Ive said in earlier post my thyroid checked out completely normal and Ive had many thyroid tests done to date, and most particularly, AFTER chemo.

Subcutaneous fat loss IS a byproduct of androgel and of most androgens....and for someone who has a damaged ability gain subcutaneous fat, it is a problem.

I have eatin 4000 calories everyday for 10 days straight. I do know how to count calories and have been blending (with a blender) about half of my daily food intake because its easier to digest (and assimilate). My personal trainer who designed the diet is a certified nutritionist. He is completely stumped as to why im not gaining weight or fat.

Can someone who might actually know something please chime in here.

How do you know that your fat cells faced mitochondrial damage? Somehow I find this VERY hard to believe as each cell has it's individual DNA and you have plenty of fat cells so even if one had it's DNA damaged there would be plenty more with normal cellular processes to make up for it. Chances that each fat cell dealt with the same change in it's (not even its own DNA, mitochondria have their DNA which is separate from cellular DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited from ones mother, so you technically receive more DNA from your mom than your dad) DNA is next to impossible.

 

[DreDay187]

I going to try and be patient in response to Docd187123's post.

Excuse??? REALLY???????????

First of all chemo DOES NOT increase your metabolism during, after, or at any stage of the process. And secondly, even if chemo did increase my metabolism (hypothetically), it would have NOTHING to do with the situation im having currently. The situation i'm having now is a METABOLIC issue that is a result of chemo reeking havoc on my body at a cellular level. Basically my fat cells have become dysfunctional as a result of mitochondrial damage, inflammation, and as a result, have a reduced ability to function. This is something that I will have to deal with for a lifetime.

I absolutely DO NOT have hyperthyroidism. As Ive said in earlier post my thyroid checked out completely normal and Ive had many thyroid tests done to date, and most particularly, AFTER chemo.

Subcutaneous fat loss IS a byproduct of androgel and of most androgens....and for someone who has a damaged ability gain subcutaneous fat, it is a problem.

I have eatin 4000 calories everyday for 10 days straight. I do know how to count calories and have been blending (with a blender) about half of my daily food intake because its easier to digest (and assimilate). My personal trainer who designed the diet is a certified nutritionist. He is completely stumped as to why im not gaining weight or fat.

Can someone who might actually know something please chime in here.

You're trying to be patient with me? I admitted to you I was no chemotherapy expert and still trying to offer up opinions to help your situation. Instead you want to attack me. Not only that but your posts are filled with utter nonsense as well so we both can be idiots. Your words

On the diet end of things I know I could increase my caloric intake but I have also read articles that say thats its a losing battle as far as BF gains due to the way food is synthesized once on trt.

^^^explain how food is synthesized ANY differently once on TRT? Explain why you mention the acronym testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in your opening post yet in post #8 you need to ask for reassurance on what it stands for? You don't even know what TDEE is yet you speak about calorie counting as if you've been doing it for years. Personal trainers and even certified nutritionists are not infallible and the proof you'd need to see that is go to any gym and ask one of them to create a diet for you. Your so called "certified nutritionists" had my diabetic sister drinking Gatorade by the liter and telling her it was ok if her glucose levels peaked quite often and she did t need as much insulin as her doctor prescribed. Yes he was speaking out of turn on the medical advice but goes to show you how well certified they are.

You can have issues related to thyroid while still being within ranges. It's which end of the range you happen to be in which is why I asked for specific values instead of "my thyroid is fine". I have searched pubmed, google scholar, and "Anabolics" by William Llewellyn. Nowhere have I seen mention of subcutaneous fat loss issues with androgel. Let alone the fact that it would be site specific, or were you too busy trying to bash me to comprehend that fact. Another option would still be to take IM injections for your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose if, and I quote,

subcutaneous fat loss IS and byproduct of androgel

. You can keep bashing all you want brother, but you've more than shown yourself to be just as inept, clueless or hypocritical.

 

[Clamp]

I have to agree with Doc on a lot of these things. You seem pretty inconsistent in the data you're giving us. In your original post you mentioned that the issue was caused by your body dealing with insulin differently then you said it was mitochondrial damage in your fat cells. Plus you said food is assimilated differently on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) just brings up your testosterone within the normal range, you don't process food differently although more of it does go towards muscle tissue and your fat cells become more sensitive to adrenergic hormones and release their fat stores more often. It is not like your body magically gets rid of those calories, they are just free floating around your body more, hence more energy on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), and are used for building muscle. There's more I could say but at this point I don't think I need to.

So what is it? An insulin problem or a mitochondrial issue? I want to help here, but I need more info.

 

[Austinite]

I also agree with Doc. I'd love to throw in my 2 cents but Durk, you're a bit aggressive so I'll pass...

 

[Durk]

Oh man....

Im not stabbing in the dark here. I am working with a Endocrinologist very closely. And I have been working with him since way before we decided testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was something I might try. Due to the symptoms I was experiencing 6 months ago, I did copious amounts of blood work, saliva tests, cortisol, thyroid, etc etc along with mutable MRI and imaging tests to rule out the possibility of another imbalance. I was reluctant to go on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and was hoping that I could blame these symptoms on something besides low T.

My endocrinologist explained that fat lose is indeed a symptom of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and that this could pose a problem for me due to my situation.

ANd a simple google search confirms this over and over..

livestrong.com/article/141790-what-are-benefits-androgel/

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/586094-testosterone-fat-loss.html

Also if we are to argue the theory of how Testosterone Replacement alters Fat ....Heres a quote from Dan Gwartney, M.D (below). steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/586094-testosterone-fat-loss.html

Certainly, there has been research showing that testosterone, DHT, and certain anabolic steroids (AAS) may reduce body fat by inhibiting the differentiation (maturation) of fat cells from precursor stem cells, altering the activity of fat uptake/storage/release enzymes, or by increasing energy expenditure (calorie burning) by promoting lean mass gains.1,2

The authors discussed various routes by which testosterone could increase fatty acid oxidation when affecting peripheral tissues, such as fat and muscle. Androgens, such as testosterone, inhibit the uptake of fat into the fat cell by hindering the actions of an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase (LPL).8 Lipoproteins carry fat through the bloodstream, and LPL cuts away the bound fat, so it can be sucked up by the fat cell.

The conclusion of the study was that transdermal testosterone can increase fatty acid oxidation, and that the effect does not involve changes in the liver's metabolic function; this is in agreement with the prior study showing injectable testosterone had a similar effect on substrate utilization (burning fat versus carbohydrates for energy). Despite the logical hypothesis that the effects of testosterone would be liver-based, the converse of the effects of oral estrogen, this study revealed that the actions of testosterone take place in the peripheral tissues, likely involving the fat cells, skeletal muscle, and likely promoting other changes including neuro-endocrine responses.

What does this mean for the athlete, bodybuilder, or fitness enthusiast? For a young, healthy, adult male, there may be little benefit, as the dose of transdermal testosterone was that used in conservative hormonal replacement protocols. However, the moderately supraphysiologic injectable administration used in the 2005 study did increase both resting energy expenditure and fatty acid oxidation (fat-burning). For the lifter just passing mid-life who may be experiencing changes in body fat, it may provide incentive to have his serum testosterone profile checked by a qualified health care practitioner.

So Docd187123....if your gonna do some "research" maybe you could also add the links above and Dan Gwartney, M.D. studies to your findings.

Im not here to argue.....the problem im having is kinda unique....Ive pretty much ruled out that "eating" more calories is a solution to my issue here. This had been confirmed by my Endocrinologist, as well as increasing my caloric intake for 10 days straight with no effect at all.

I was hoping that someone could chime in here who might have the same set of road blocks that I have. Im not just the average joe on Testosterone here. I was on chemo and survived cancer for F==ks sake...

As far as my situation being insulin related and or mitochondrial damage in my fat cells, this is the information and explanation I was given by my Oncologist who also explained that no much is known about this post chemo phenomenon.

 

[DreDay187]

Oh man....

Im not stabbing in the dark here. I am working with a Endocrinologist very closely. And I have been working with him since way before we decided testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was something I might try. Due to the symptoms I was experiencing 6 months ago, I did copious amounts of blood work, saliva tests, cortisol, thyroid, etc etc along with mutable MRI and imaging tests to rule out the possibility of another imbalance. I was reluctant to go on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and was hoping that I could blame these symptoms on something besides low T.

My endocrinologist explained that fat lose is indeed a symptom of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and that this could pose a problem for me due to my situation.

ANd a simple google search confirms this over and over..

livestrong.com/article/141790-what-are-benefits-androgel/

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/586094-testosterone-fat-loss.html

Also if we are to argue the theory of how Testosterone Replacement alters Fat ....Heres a quote from Dan Gwartney, M.D (below). steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/586094-testosterone-fat-loss.html

Certainly, there has been research showing that testosterone, DHT, and certain anabolic steroids (AAS) may reduce body fat by inhibiting the differentiation (maturation) of fat cells from precursor stem cells, altering the activity of fat uptake/storage/release enzymes, or by increasing energy expenditure (calorie burning) by promoting lean mass gains.1,2

The authors discussed various routes by which testosterone could increase fatty acid oxidation when affecting peripheral tissues, such as fat and muscle. Androgens, such as testosterone, inhibit the uptake of fat into the fat cell by hindering the actions of an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase (LPL).8 Lipoproteins carry fat through the bloodstream, and LPL cuts away the bound fat, so it can be sucked up by the fat cell.

The conclusion of the study was that transdermal testosterone can increase fatty acid oxidation, and that the effect does not involve changes in the liver's metabolic function; this is in agreement with the prior study showing injectable testosterone had a similar effect on substrate utilization (burning fat versus carbohydrates for energy). Despite the logical hypothesis that the effects of testosterone would be liver-based, the converse of the effects of oral estrogen, this study revealed that the actions of testosterone take place in the peripheral tissues, likely involving the fat cells, skeletal muscle, and likely promoting other changes including neuro-endocrine responses.

What does this mean for the athlete, bodybuilder, or fitness enthusiast? For a young, healthy, adult male, there may be little benefit, as the dose of transdermal testosterone was that used in conservative hormonal replacement protocols. However, the moderately supraphysiologic injectable administration used in the 2005 study did increase both resting energy expenditure and fatty acid oxidation (fat-burning). For the lifter just passing mid-life who may be experiencing changes in body fat, it may provide incentive to have his serum testosterone profile checked by a qualified health care practitioner.

So Docd187123....if your gonna do some "research" maybe you could also add the links above and Dan Gwartney, M.D. studies to your findings.

Im not here to argue.....the problem im having is kinda unique....Ive pretty much ruled out that "eating" more calories is a solution to my issue here. This had been confirmed by my Endocrinologist, as well as increasing my caloric intake for 10 days straight with no effect at all.

I was hoping that someone could chime in here who might have the same set of road blocks that I have. Im not just the average joe on Testosterone here. I was on chemo and survived cancer for F==ks sake...

As far as my situation being insulin related and or mitochondrial damage in my fat cells, this is the information and explanation I was given by my Oncologist who also explained that no much is known about this post chemo phenomenon.

So this is the part of the thread where I get to attack you right? You attacked me on the basis of not knowing what I was talking about yet now your evidence is 2 steroidogy articles and a live strong articles? I apologize inset my standards higher than that when I said "a search of pubmed, google SCHOLAR, and "Anabolics" text did not bring up anything. Maybe you should work on setting your standards of evidence higher as I work towards my understanding of chemo.

Of course increasing serum T levels would help decrease bodyfat IF you're hypogonadal to begin with but that's fatty tissue not necessarily subcutaneous fat as you mention in your OP. have you thought of trying injectable testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) methods if as you claim "this is an issue of androgel"?

From your livestrong article which referenced a Harvard study:

The change in lean body mass was 1.97 ± 0.24 kg at 6 months and was further increased to 2.93 ± 0.32 kg at 18 months and 2.89 ± 0.41 kg at 30 months (P = 0.0065). The differences in the lean body mass between the dose groups and those over and under age 60 yr were not significant. Fat mass decreased significantly as a group with T gel replacement (P = 0.0058). The decrease in fat mass was ***8722;0.8 ± 0.3 kg at 6 months and ***8722;1.57 ± 0.38 and ***8722;1.30 ± 0.51 kg at 18 and 30 months (P = 0.088 when compared with 6 months), respectively, without significant differences among the different dose groups. The decreases in fat mass (P = 0.032) and percent fat (P = 0.0001) were observed only in the younger subjects but not in older men. the changes in body composition parameters were not related to the change in serum T concentrations during replacement therapy.

JCEM | Mobile

^^^hose fat loss numbers are statistically significant but not so much clinically. .8kg fat mass reduction at 6months, 1.57kg at -8months??? Those could be had with a subpar diet. And the kicker "the changes in fat mass and percent were observed in younger subjects not older men". I thought you were 48? Hardly a "younger subject" (no offense to your age but not the 19yo's investigated in this study either.

There are ppl on here who begin a surplus diet and don't change weight after 2wks so for you to only stick with it for 10days does not effectively rule out diet. Then again if it stumps your endo maybe it stumps simple minded ppl such as myself too. So how about taking your time and finding real "research" to back up your hypothetical claims instead of attacking mine which have somewhat higher standards than "livestrong" articles.

 

[Durk]

The links I provided that lead to the LiveStrong articles were simply to show how easy it was to find results regarding fat changes while on androgens.

The most factual and relevant link & article I posted was by Dan Gwartney, M.D. But I didn't see you comment on those findings?

Im not opposed to continuing the "eat more" consept. I just dont think they apply to me with my past chemo treatment and resulting problem storing fat as a result.

Was hoping someone could offer some information or personal experience based on actually having the same problems I have.

 

[DreDay187]

The links I provided that lead to the LiveStrong articles were simply to show how easy it was to find results regarding fat changes while on androgens.

The most factual and relevant link & article I posted was by Dan Gwartney, M.D. But I didn't see you comment on those findings?

Im not opposed to continuing the "eat more" consept. I just dont think they apply to me with my past chemo treatment and resulting problem storing fat as a result.

Was hoping someone could offer some information or personal experience based on actually having the same problems I have.

By the point remains: that easiness you speak of is not enough for proof of anything. Like I said my criteria for putting forth evidence is more than a livestrong article so while it may have been easier to find such articles, they don't meet my criterion for evidence.

If you're not opposed to eating more concept, why not try it out first? It's y far the easiest theory to put in action, the easiest to test and/or disprove, and by far the cheapest as well.

I can't speak for others but I've never been through chemo. I've had uncles that have been through it and I know it's tough on the body and mind. I really wish you luck in finding out what's going on but when I'm called out I respond to it. So if I came across as harsh that's only bc that's how I perceived you as coming to me.

And I'll comment on the MD findings if you wish but I spent my lunch (besides eating) reading the studies linked to your livestrong article. My lunch being over now I don't have the time to sit and thoroughly go through and process everything. I can do it later when over home from work if you wish. But again, understand I'm trying to help you (whether or not it's going to solve your issues is another story). I'm a stranger to you on the Internet and doing what I can in hopes of maybe shedding some light for you. Try to keep the "aggressive" comments to a minimum is all I ask.

 

[Austinite]

If you have a serious medical condition, go to a doctors forum, what the heck are you doing here? You want someone to tell you what to inject to fix the problem? Wasting everyone's time. Livestrong website in its entirety is garbage filled with shit opinion. You shat all over the one guy that was willing to put in some effort, whether you liked it or not... is irrelevant.

You're not as smart as you think you are, and neither is your endo considering he hasn't taught you the basics, which Docd already pointed out.

Should be ashamed of yourself for treating a helping hand like this. Go find a doctor, and you can pay for a brainstorm session. After 48 years, I'd expect some level of patience from you. We don't all grow up I guess.

Don't be upset, you deserve everything that I said, and you know it. Good luck.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Welcome your not going to loose to much fat. You body will keep on 8-12 % unless you go to pretty focused measures to loose it. Go to the diet forum and work on your diet.

 

[Durk]

I spent my lunch (besides eating) reading the studies linked to your livestrong article. My lunch being over now I don't have the time to sit and thoroughly go through and process everything. I can do it later when over home from work if you wish. But again, understand I'm trying to help you (whether or not it's going to solve your issues is another story). I'm a stranger to you on the Internet and doing what I can in hopes of maybe shedding some light for you. Try to keep the "aggressive" comments to a minimum is all I ask.

I am really grateful you are trying to help. And any further help would be greatly appreciated.

All I know is im a guy who has "not normal" fat cells.

My oncologist and I have had many conversations about this and the conversation always ends with...."Not much is know about this phenomenon because its a very rare side effect of chemo. Most people off chemo have the opposite problem where they have too much fat accumulation. Very little has been done to uncover my disorder because so few people experience it." The only research tip I was given was to search out HIV forums because apparently this disorder is very similar to those who are on certain HIV meds that have caused the same metabolic problems I have. The HIV forums have tons of info saying that Testosterone (injections, topical etc etc) is not a good solution for this metabolic disorder because Testosterone takes away subcutaneous fat.

The only reason im freaking out here is because ive been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for almost 6 months. The longer I stay on it, the more chance I might not make the same amount on my own as I was making prior to starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). If eating is the solution and I need to give it "more time" to experiment, then I might ultimately be hurting my chances of making my own test in the long run. This might explain my "inpatients"

My numbers prior to starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL 355 250 - 1100 ng/dL

TESTOSTERONE, FREE 120.7 35.0 - 155.0 pg/mL


COMPREHENSIVE METABOLIC PANEL
Component Your Value Standard Range Units
GLUCOSE 95 65 - 99 mg/dL
Fasting reference interval
Urea Nitrogen 19 7 - 25 mg/dL
Creatinine 0.99 0.78 - 1.34 mg/dL
eGFR, Non-AA 90 > OR = 60 - mL/min/1.73m2
eGFR, AA 105 > OR = 60 - mL/min/1.73m2
BUN/Creatinine NOT APPLICABLE 6 - 22 (calc)
SODIUM 138 135 - 146 mmol/L
POTASSIUM 4.4 3.5 - 5.3 mmol/L
CHLORIDE 104 98 - 110 mmol/L
CARBON DIOXIDE 20 21 - 33 mmol/L
CALCIUM 9.7 8.6 - 10.2 mg/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.1 6.2 - 8.3 g/dL
ALBUMIN 4.6 3.6 - 5.1 g/dL
GLOBULIN 2.5 2.1 - 3.7 g/dL (calc)
ALBUMIN/GLOBULIN RATIO 1.8 1.0 - 2.1 (calc)
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 2.0 0.2 - 1.2 mg/dL
ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 69 40 - 115 U/L
AST 17 10 - 40 U/L
ALT 16 9 - 60 U/L

THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE
Component Your Value Standard Range Units
TSH 2.82 0.40 - 4.50 mIU/L

LUTEINIZING HORMONE
Component Your Value Standard Range Units
LH 5.4 1.5 - 9.3 mIU/mL

FOLLICLE STIMULATING HORMONE

Component Your Value Standard Range Units
FSH 6.1 1.6 - 8.0 mIU/mL