Need thoughts on Test(Prop)/Tren(Ace) Cycle & PCT

[Dr.Xta-C]

I've been reading this and many other steroid forums for quite a while but have never actively participated previously so let me take this opportunity to thank you all for all the knowledge and experience that you've put the effort into posting on this forum and elsewhere.

I am planning on cycling test-p, tren-a, Winstrol (winny) and anavar starting december and would like your opinions and thoughts on the cycle I planned along with its Inra and Post Cycle Therapy plans.

My stats are:

28 Years old (Been lifting seriously for about two and a half years)
Height 5' 11"

185 Pounds (Hard Gainer, I swear I tried.. Out of all the people I know I eat the most!)

Previous Cycles (8 Weeks Deca @ 500mg/Week / Test P 675mg/Week)
Great Gains out of that cycle but recovery took long because I got a different opinion as to how I should've carried my post cycle therapy (pct) out. I started with Clomid/Nolvadex/Proviron and a 5000iu shot of HCG on the first day of post cycle therapy (pct). That lasted for about a week but I was told that the Proviron wasn't helping (i.e. shutting me down) and I was advised to stop my post cycle therapy (pct) for 5 days and then start it all over again using Arimidex 1mg/Day for 30 days.

I would prefer a much faster recovery with the cycle I intend to start in December in order to maintain as much gains as possible and this is why I'm posting this thread.

I lift intensly 4 days a week (Sat/Sun/Tues/Thu) and follow that up with 25-30min of cardio

Proposed Cycle

Cycle
Days 1-60 70mg Test-Prop ED
Days 1-60 50mg Tren-Ace ED
Days 36-60 40mg Anavar ED
Days 36-67 75mg Winstrol (Oral) ED

Intra Cycle Therapy
0.5 Adex EOD days 1-60
500iu HCG Days 44-65 E3D (i.e days 44, 47, 50, 53, 56, 59, 62, 65)

Post Cycle Therapy (Starts on day 68)
1 Week HCG 1000iu EOD
3 Weeks of Clomid starting at 300mg first day then 100mg for 10 days and then 50mg for 10 days
3 Weeks of Nolvadex start at 40mg first week then 20mg for 2 weeks

BTW, I already inject myself with 4iu/day of HGH 5 or 6 days a week

I have access to proviron / tribulus / dostinex (cabergoline) but no idea as to where those would fit best or if they would add any benefit to begin with.

Your opinions and thoughts will be very much apprecaited especially on the intra and post-cycle post cycle therapy (pct) plan.

Thanks!

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

Anyone?

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

Bump..

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

I've been reading this and many other steroid forums for quite a while but have never actively participated previously so let me take this opportunity to thank you all for all the knowledge and experience that you've put the effort into posting on this forum and elsewhere.

I am planning on cycling test-p, tren-a, Winstrol (winny) and anavar starting december and would like your opinions and thoughts on the cycle I planned along with its Inra and Post Cycle Therapy plans.

My stats are:

28 Years old (Been lifting seriously for about two and a half years)
Height 5' 11"

185 Pounds (Hard Gainer, I swear I tried.. Out of all the people I know I eat the most!)

Previous Cycles (8 Weeks Deca @ 500mg/Week / Test P 675mg/Week)
Great Gains out of that cycle but recovery took long because I got a different opinion as to how I should've carried my PCT out. I started with Clomid/Nolvadex/Proviron and a 5000iu shot of HCG on the first day of post cycle therapy (pct). That lasted for about a week but I was told that the Proviron wasn't helping (i.e. shutting me down) and I was advised to stop my PCT for 5 days and then start it all over again using Arimidex 1mg/Day for 30 days.

I would prefer a much faster recovery with the cycle I intend to start in December in order to maintain as much gains as possible and this is why I'm posting this thread.

I lift intensly 4 days a week (Sat/Sun/Tues/Thu) and follow that up with 25-30min of cardio

Proposed Cycle

Cycle
Days 1-60 70mg Test-Prop ED
Days 1-60 50mg Tren-Ace ED
Days 36-60 40mg Anavar ED
Days 36-67 75mg Winstrol (Oral) ED

Intra Cycle Therapy
0.5 Adex EOD days 1-60
500iu HCG Days 44-65 E3D (i.e days 44, 47, 50, 53, 56, 59, 62, 65)

Post Cycle Therapy (Starts on day 68)
1 Week HCG 1000iu EOD
3 Weeks of Clomid starting at 300mg first day then 100mg for 10 days and then 50mg for 10 days
3 Weeks of Nolvadex start at 40mg first week then 20mg for 2 weeks

BTW, I already inject myself with 4iu/day of HGH 5 or 6 days a week

I have access to proviron / tribulus / dostinex (cabergoline) but no idea as to where those would fit best or if they would add any benefit to begin with.

Your opinions and thoughts will be very much apprecaited especially on the intra and post-cycle PCT plan.

Thanks!

HCG should not be used during the same time frame as SERM's for post cycle therapy (pct). Also where's the prami?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I wouldnt use Winstrol (winny) unless i wanted to dry out, but thats me.

you should run your prop at least a week longer than tren just cause.

and as HUM said, HCG and SERM's together are pointless.

other than that it looks reasonable.

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

I was actually thinking of using dostinex (cabergoline) instead of prami @ 0.25mg twice a week. It's a dopamine agonist just like prami.. What are your thoughts on that? It should be enough to lower prolacin levels..

Also, in what manner should I re-schedule HCG? And how would that impact my post cycle therapy (pct)? Is my proposed intra-pct adequate?

Thanx!

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

I wouldnt use Winstrol (winny) unless i wanted to dry out, but thats me.

you should run your prop at least a week longer than tren just cause.

and as HUM said, HCG and SERM's together are pointless.

other than that it looks reasonable.

Noted, I do agree with running test for an additional week post tren. And yes, the purpose of including Winstrol (winny) is to dry out..

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

If I alter HCG intake to 500iu every 4 to 5 days throughout the cycle and keep post cycle therapy (pct) limited to either clomid and/or nova will that suffice. What would you recommend?

Sorry for asking too many questions but I really don't wanna mess this up...

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

If I alter HCG intake to 500iu every 4 to 5 days throughout the cycle and keep PCT limited to either clomid and/or nova will that suffice. What would you recommend?

Sorry for asking too many questions but I really don't wanna mess this up...

No problem we don't want you to mess up either. Just pin 500iu twice a week.

Cloimd pct is my go to.
4 weeks 100/50/50/25.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

I was actually thinking of using dostinex (cabergoline) instead of prami @ 0.25mg twice a week. It's a dopamine agonist just like prami.. What are your thoughts on that? It should be enough to lower prolacin levels..

Also, in what manner should I re-schedule HCG? And how would that impact my post cycle therapy (pct)? Is my proposed intra-pct adequate?

Thanx!

If you can handle dostinex sides go for it. I like prami because the side effects for me is:

Increased libido
Better sleep
Lower blood pressure even while using tren
Better mood

I tried Dostinex. Was not a fan at all.

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

If you can handle dostinex sides go for it. I like prami because the side effects for me is:

Increased libido
Better sleep
Lower blood pressure even while using tren
Better mood

I tried Dostinex. Was not a fan at all.

Thanx! I'll see if I can get my hands on prami.. Never tried any of the two compounds so I can trust I can take ur word for it.. What dosage/frequency would be optimal as I believe it's half-life is around 8 to 10 hours or so?

Thanks again

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I want to add a few more points about HCG. I think it is important to run HCG during the cycle, and to BLAST it during the T decline.

Here is a post from DR. Scally. This DR. specializes in treating men men with ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism). I have a TON of respect for his post cycle therapy (pct) protocol because he has worked with 1,000's of patients. Not to mention that we can guess all day long about proper post cycle therapy (pct) timing, but this guy doesnt have to. He runs labs on his guys all throughout post cycle therapy (pct). Now it wouldnt take a rocket scientist to know if you had that kind of access to data during post cycle therapy (pct) im sure you would become rather good at. I believe his post cycle therapy (pct) to be the most up to date and correct protocol there is.


"Thanks for the help! I am indebted to you for your graciousness. If I do not answer completely, PM me. The hCG use can be during cycle, nearing the end of cycle, or at the conclusion of cycle. Confusing? The most important part is the timing for the hCG administration. For example, TC/TE 500 mg/week for 12 weeks will provide a serum testosterone level upon the last injection somewhere around 7,000 ng/dL. The post cycle therapy (pct) must consider the TC/TE half-life. From 7,000 ng/dL, it will be about 4 weeks until the HPTA attempts to restart (ideally/theoretically). Thus, the SERMs should not begin until this point, although I do include them earlier to decrease the negative feedback of the hCG and E2.


I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen."

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Thanx! I'll see if I can get my hands on prami.. Never tried any of the two compounds so I can trust I can take ur word for it.. What dosage/frequency would be optimal as I believe it's half-life is around 8 to 10 hours or so?

Thanks again

Taper prami up to .25 mg ED.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Basically he says, during the T decline you should be BLASTING 1,000-1,500 iu EOD in order to get the testes functioning at FULL CAPACITY, after all if you cant get them to do that, getting your balls back online would be kinda pointless.

Unless you BLAST the HCG your balls WILL NOT be producing at 100%, regardless of size.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

I want to add a few more points about HCG. I think it is important to run HCG during the cycle, and to BLAST it during the T decline.

Here is a post from DR. Scally. This DR. specializes in treating men men with ASIH (anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism). I have a TON of respect for his post cycle therapy (pct) protocol because he has worked with 1,000's of patients. Not to mention that we can guess all day long about proper post cycle therapy (pct) timing, but this guy doesnt have to. He runs labs on his guys all throughout post cycle therapy (pct). Now it wouldnt take a rocket scientist to know if you had that kind of access to data during post cycle therapy (pct) im sure you would become rather good at. I believe his post cycle therapy (pct) to be the most up to date and correct protocol there is.


"Thanks for the help! I am indebted to you for your graciousness. If I do not answer completely, PM me. The hCG use can be during cycle, nearing the end of cycle, or at the conclusion of cycle. Confusing? The most important part is the timing for the hCG administration. For example, TC/TE 500 mg/week for 12 weeks will provide a serum testosterone level upon the last injection somewhere around 7,000 ng/dL. The post cycle therapy (pct) must consider the TC/TE half-life. From 7,000 ng/dL, it will be about 4 weeks until the HPTA attempts to restart (ideally/theoretically). Thus, the SERMs should not begin until this point, although I do include them earlier to decrease the negative feedback of the hCG and E2.


I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen."

Exquisitely relayed. Damn I have to wait for a recharge but I bookmarked the URL. You are getting some green for this OAK.

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

Basically he says, during the T decline you should be BLASTING 1,000-1,500 iu EOD in order to get the testes functioning at FULL CAPACITY, after all if you cant get them to do that, getting your balls back online would be kinda pointless.

Unless you BLAST the HCG your balls WILL NOT be producing at 100%, regardless of size.

So lemmy get this straight.. Is he recommending 500iu E3D during cycle and 1000-1500iu EOD post cycle prior to post cycle therapy (pct), assuming that clomid post cycle therapy (pct) will start 5 days after last hCG shot? If so, how long should I need to be blasting hcg post-cycle?

I think I'm a bit confused now, lol..

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

LOL i know.

basically what he is saying is your levels will get to 7000 ng/dl during a 12 week cycle of enanthate. using the half of 7 days we can kinda determine when levels will get to 375ng/dl. this is when the DOC says our testes will respond to our natural LH signal.

so after 7 days, 3500ng/dl. 7 more 1750. 7 more 875. 7 more 437.5.

thats 28 days boys, not 14 like we always recommend.

now another thing we have to remember is half-lifes are subjective to many, many factors so the only TRUE way to know is with a blood test.

with that being said, it is better to over estimate the time it will take for the ester to clear, cause if we run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) correctly, enough to FULLY stimulate T production and get our levels into normal range with it, the we should be producing enough T anyway.

with me?

then we wait 4 days and start our SERM.

I believe this to be the reason of many failed PCT's, timing. Just imagine someone comes off Deca which is like 10-12 day half-life Z(i think dont feel like checking) you can see how long it could possibly take.

Not to mention i say 1,000-1,500 Iu ( in thread and he said that was accecptible) but for heavy cycles he recommends 2,000 to 2,500 EOD during the blast time.

Here is where i get to put my 2 cents. I will NEVER come off a cycle with a long ester, i will always switch to prop before i come off. using a 3 day half-life of prop i think it takes only 12 days to get to 375ng/dl.

Not to mention the fact that I will ALWAYS run my test plenty longer than ALL other compounds, solo.

with prop i would blast my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a good 2 weeks before trying the SERM treatment.

hope this straightened you out OP, I know its alot of info, but keep in mind that is why he states one must have an understanding of their own body, and how well X amount of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will stimulate the boys.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

So lemmy get this straight.. Is he recommending 500iu E3D during cycle and 1000-1500iu EOD post cycle prior to post cycle therapy (pct), assuming that clomid post cycle therapy (pct) will start 5 days after last hCG shot? If so, how long should I need to be blasting Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) post-cycle?

.

pretty much in a nutshell, yes.

 

[Dr.Xta-C]

LOL i know.

basically what he is saying is your levels will get to 7000 ng/dl during a 12 week cycle of enanthate. using the half of 7 days we can kinda determine when levels will get to 375ng/dl. this is when the DOC says our testes will respond to our natural LH signal.

so after 7 days, 3500ng/dl. 7 more 1750. 7 more 875. 7 more 437.5.

thats 28 days boys, not 14 like we always recommend.

now another thing we have to remember is half-lifes are subjective to many, many factors so the only TRUE way to know is with a blood test.

with that being said, it is better to over estimate the time it will take for the ester to clear, cause if we run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) correctly, enough to FULLY stimulate T production and get our levels into normal range with it, the we should be producing enough T anyway.

with me?

then we wait 4 days and start our SERM.

I believe this to be the reason of many failed PCT's, timing. Just imagine someone comes off Deca which is like 10-12 day half-life Z(i think dont feel like checking) you can see how long it could possibly take.

Not to mention i say 1,000-1,500 Iu (cause i did speak with him in thread and he said that was accecptible) but for heavy cycles he recommends 2,000 to 2,500 EOD during the blast time.

Here is where i get to put my 2 cents. I will NEVER come off a cycle with a long ester, i will always switch to prop before i come off. using a 3 day half-life of prop i think it takes only 12 days to get to 375ng/dl.

Not to mention the fact that I will ALWAYS run my test plenty longer than ALL other compounds, solo.

with prop i would blast my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) a good 2 weeks before trying the SERM treatment.

hope this straightened you out OP, I know its alot of info, but keep in mind that is why he states one must have an understanding of their own body, and how well X amount of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will stimulate the boys.

Thanks, I think this has pretty much cleared it for me.

I'll be on tren for a lil short of 8 weeks (60 days) and prop for 70. Take a 10 day break then start blasting 1500iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) EOD for two weeks. Then, 4 or 5 days later, start a 100/50/50/25 clomid PCT.

.. At least that's how I understood it

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

do the blasting during the 10 day break, during the T decline.

28 days after was enanthate.