The issues with CEE
a) First and foremost, 5g of Creatine monohydrate consumed daily has been shown to saturate muscle creatine stores 100%. It is impossible by definition to beat 100% saturation, and 5g is hardly an inconvenient dose to warrant the CEE claims that "it requires less", or that it "gets absorbed more".
also of interest
Quote:
Single- and multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of oral creatine.
* Persky AM,
* Muller M,
* Derendorf H,
* Grant M,
* Brazeau GA,
* Hochhaus G.
Department of Pharmaceutics, College of Pharmacy, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA.
Supplementation with exogenous creatine (Cr) has shown physiological benefits in humans, but little is known about the pharmacokinetics of Cr in humans. Six healthy males completed an open-label study consisting of a full pharmacokinetic analysis following a single oral dose of Cr monohydrate (71 mg kg-1) and at steady-state after 6 days of Cr administration (71 mg kg-1 qid). After the single oral dose, the clearance (CL/F) was 0.20 +/- 0.066 L h-1 kg-1, tmax was 1.9 +/- 0.88 hours, and Cmax = 102.1 +/- 11.2 mg h L-1. At steady-state, CL/F decreased to 0.12 +/- 0.016 L h-1 kg-1, tmax did not change, and Cmax increased to 162.2 +/- 30.0 mg L-1. Penetration (AUCMUSCLE/AUCPLASMA) of Cr into the interstitial muscle space, as determined by microdialysis, was 0.47 +/- 0.09 and 0.37 +/- 0.27 for the single dose and at steady-state, respectively. Plasma and muscle data were simultaneously fitted with a model incorporating a saturable absorption and first-order elimination process. In conclusion, repeated dosing of Cr caused a reduction in clearance that could result from saturation of the skeletal muscle pool of Cr.
Literature also observes that non-responsiveness to creatine is not due to the supplement not illiciting its desired effects, but due to the presence of an already existing high saturation of creatine in the muscle cells, combined with fewer Type II Fibers. CEE, or any form of creatine, can do nothing more for people like these, and the claim that it would work for creatine non-responders is bunk
Quote:
Acute creatine monohydrate supplementation: a descriptive physiological profile of responders vs. nonresponders.
* Syrotuik DG,
* Bell GJ.
Faculty of Physical Education and Recreation, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.
Syrotuik@ualberta.ca
The purpose of this study was to describe the physiological profile of responders (>20 mmol.kg(-1) dry weight [dw] increase in total intramuscular creatine monohydrate [Cr] + phosphorylated creatine [PCr]) versus nonresponders (<10 mmol.kg(-1) dw increase) to a 5-day Cr load (0.3 g.kg(-1).d(-1)) in 11 healthy men (mean age = 22.7 years). Pre-post 5-day cellular measures included total resting Cr content (Cr + PCr), fiber type composition, and fiber type cross-sectional area (CSA) determined from muscle biopsies of the vastus lateralis. Body mass, daily dietary intake, 24-hour urine outputs, urinary Cr and creatinine (CrN), and strength performance measures (1 repetition maximum [1RM] bench and leg press) were also assessed before and after the 5-day loading period. Results indicated that there were 3 levels of response to the 5-day supplementation: responders (R), quasi responders (QR), and nonresponders (NR) with mean changes in resting Cr + PCr of 29.5 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), 14.9 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 5), and 5.1 mmol.kg(-1) dw (n = 3), respectively. The results support a person-by-treatment interaction to acute Cr supplementation with R possessing a biological profile of lowest initial levels of Cr + PCr, greatest percentage of type II fibers, and greatest preload muscle fiber CSA and fat-free mass. Responders also showed improvement in 1RM leg press scores following the 5-day loading period. NR had higher preload levels of Cr + PCr, less type II muscle fibers, small preload muscle CSA, and lower fat-free mass and displayed no improvements in 1RM strength scores. The results suggest that to be considered a responder to acute oral supplementation, a favorable preexisting biological profile may determine the final extent to which an individual responds to supplementation. Physiologic profiles of nonresponders appear to be different and may limit their ability to uptake Cr. This may help partially explain the reported equivocal performance findings in the Cr supplementation literature.
PMID: 15320650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
b) The dreaded "CrM bloat" first off occurs in few people.
Those that it occurs in tend to be a) Drinking too little fluids and/or b) dosing incorrectly (too high). The dreaded CrM bloat also goes away after a couple of months (sometimes weeks), it is not permanent.
c) CEE has little to
no literature on its effectiveness or safety. It's potential effectiveness is limited to anecdotal evidence only.
c) CEE is HIGHLY UNSTABLE IN NEUTRAL pH (Water, Saliva).
(Credit for image: deserusan)
This means that most of the ingested CEE, especially powdered CEE, turns to creatinine before it is available for absorption. The issue with this is twofold
i) Creatinine will not give you the desired effects of creatine supplementation
ii) Elevated serum creatine levels are high correlated to renal failure and kidney problems. Remember that newbie who said creatine would be bad for your kidneys? If you use CEE, he could very potentially be right. There have been reports on these very forums of people getting tested after using CEE and observing abnormally large quantities of serum creatinine.
Furthermore, many and most of the "top" CEE products have been tested for CEE, and almost all of them were observed to have little to no actual CEE content, and had CrM and creatinine instead.
Link I have been notified by a forum member and friend that the authenticity of the testing in the linked thread is under question. I will still leave the link here, however
Quote:
Creatine supplementation: a comparison of loading and maintenance protocols on creatine uptake by human skeletal muscle.
* Preen D,
* Dawson B,
* Goodman C,
* Beilby J,
* Ching S.
Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science at The University of Western Australia, Crawley, W.A., Australia, 6009.
The purposes of this investigation were first to determine the impact of 3 different creatine (Cr) loading procedures on skeletal muscle total Cr (TCr) accumulation and, second, to evaluate the effectiveness of 2 maintenance regimes on retaining intramuscular TCr stores, in the 6 weeks following a 5-day Cr loading program (20 g x day(-1). Eighteen physically active male subjects were divided into 3 equal groups and administered either: (a) Cr (4 x 5 g x day(-1) x 5 days), (b) Glucose+Cr (1 g x (-1) of body mass twice per day), or (c) Cr in conjunction with 60 min of daily muscular (repeated-sprint) exercise. Following the 5-day loading period, subjects were reassigned to 3 maintenance groups and ingested either 0 g x day(-1), 2 g. day(-1) or 5 g x day(-1) of Cr for a period of 6 weeks. Muscle biopsy samples (vastus lateralis) were taken pre- and post-loading as well as post-maintenance and analyzed for skeletal muscle ATP, phosphocreatine (PCr), Cr, and TCr concentrations. Twenty-four hour urine samples were collected for each of the loading days and last 2 maintenance days, and used to determine whole body Cr retention. Post-loading TCr stores were significantly (p <.05) increased in all treatment conditions. The Glucose+Cr condition produced a greater elevation (p <.05) in TCr concentrations (25%) than the Cr Only (16%) or Exercise+Cr (18%) groups. Following the maintenance period, muscle TCr stores were still similar to post-loading values for both the 2 g x day(-1) and 5 g x day(-1) conditions. Intramuscular TCr values for the 0 g x day(-1) condition were significantly lower than the other conditions after the 6-week period. Although not significantly different from pre-loading concentrations, muscle TCr for the 0 g x day(-1) group had not fully returned to baseline levels at 6 weeks post-loading. The data suggests that Glucose+Cr (but with a much smaller glucose intake than currently accepted) is potentially the most effective means of elevating TCr accumulation in human skeletal muscle. Furthermore, after 5 days of Cr loading, elevated muscle TCr concentrations can be maintained by the ingestion of small daily Cr doses (2-5 g) for a period of 6 weeks and that TCr concentrations may take longer than currently accepted to return to baseline values after such a Cr loading regime.
PMID: 12660409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Don't waste your money on something that cannot possibly be more effective than the safe and proven CrM,
and that has potentially hazardous health risks.
Cliff Notes
- CEE is unstudied in safety and effectiveness
- CEE by nature is very unstable in neutral pH
- Unstable CEE = you ingesting more creatinine than anything, which is both useless and hazardous
- CrM has been studied for safety and effectiveness, and has come clean
- CrM has to be dosed at small doses and therefore the claims of CEE "requiring less" is unwarranted
- CrM "bloat" is not permanent
- Non responders to CrM will probably not respond to anything.
Most of this has been picked off from posts here and there. I simply wanted to gather everything together
lol jk
