Switched from androgel to cypionate...feel terrible!

[Strat1900]

Greetings, first time poster looking for some help.

I was the poster child for low-T. Got put on Androgel 1% and while the going was slow I did see some improvement in all areas after a couple months. Went from an initial T-level of 240 to 544. Then I seemed to regress a little...ED issues started creeping back in mostly. Went back to GP who then referred me to a Urologist. Did all blood work again...T-level was 176!!! He indicated I may have developed an issue absorbing the gel so he gave me a 200mg shot of cypionate and told me to come back in 2 weeks for another shot. Said to stop using the gel. That was a week ago and I have felt like total crap since. I never got a happy spike a couple days after the shot, just have felt progressively worse to the point I was considering calling in sick to work a time or two. The urologist did not indicate this might happen. I tried to call him to ask this question but basically I got told to wait till my second appointment and I cold talk to him then. I am less than impressed with him and his staff for a host of reasons but I'll give them a little longer, but I digress.

My question: Is it normal to feel like crap after taking Androgel for 2+ months and then switching to injections? Actually I feel like I'm back to zero again. Brain fog, no energy, no interest in sex and the thought of sex kind of scares me.

At my next appointment with the Urologist they were going to train me to inject myself and I was going to do the 100mg every week vs. 200 every two weeks, but I'm still concerned because I felt absolutely nothing with the first 200mg shot. Does it take a while for the cypionate to kick in even if I've been using androgel? I don't know if I can take another two weeks of this. Thanks.

Strat

 

[frank.tb]

Not sure how the gel works and how rapidly it gets in your system but cypionate is a long ester so it releases slower in your system...
Too keep optimum peaks in test levels you need to pin (inject) every 3.5 days...
So just an example, if.your weekly dose is 250 mg per week then you.would pin 125mg Monday morning and 125mg Thursday night...
Usually this requires self administered testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) though...most docs stick to the very early testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) regulations which is come get a shot every week or 2...

But to answer your.question yes...it's normal because it's taking time to release in your system...

 

[Megatron28]

What you went through with gels is typical.

You will like injections a lot better, but they take time to kick in. Can be several weeks. Even a couple of months for some guys.

Since your natural T is shut down, I would not have recommended stopping the gel cold turkey. I think you should taper it down while the test cyp has time to ramp up. I think over two weeks would be OK for tapering down. Just keep taking a little less each day until you get to zero.

As said ^^^ injecting every 3.5 days is ideal.

Discuss estradiol management and monitoring with your doc. Test aromatizes into estradiol and if your E gets too high you will feel terrible (or if it gets too low also). If you can inject every 3.5 days at your dose, you very likely may not have an E problem, but best to monitor it and be prepared to treat it if necessary.

 

[Strat1900]

frank.tb, Megatron,
Thank you for your replies. Man...based on your comments I am not looking forward to this coming week. With 5 more days till my next injection I'll try using a half-dosage of the androgel because I need some relief...I'm really struggling to just keep going. I've done a lot of reading via the internet and what you folks are saying is consistent with what I've found, but also the regimen my doctor and urologist are prescribing is the protocol from about 10-15 years ago. Why does it take so long for these folks to catch up? I try not to come across as an internet doctor, I really do, but if I do happen to mention something I read, about testing for estrogen or maybe Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), they seem to take it personally and then take on a very condescending tone. Especially the urologist...what an arrogant piece of work he is. Yeah, I'm not in a very good mood this morning...on top of everything else now I can't sleep. I appreciate you help and insight.
Strat

 

[Megatron28]

Why not a full dose of gel and taper it down over a couple of weeks?

Perhaps instead of telling him you want to check estradiol try leading him to the answer. I know this really sucks, but sounds like this guy has a huge ego - which many docs have - and you need to stroke it. Try the Socratic method. Ask him to explain how aromatase enzymes can convert testosterone into estradiol. Tell him you came across that but didn't fully understand it. Then ask him, "is there something we can do to check and see if I have an issue with aromatization?".

Instead of saying, hey I read on the internet that most guys have best success pinning every 3.5 days rather than 14 as it evens out their levels, try asking him to explain what a half-life is and esters are. You read something about the cypionate ester being about 5-7 days. Then lead him to, "hey, given that the half life is much shorter than 14 days would it make sense to pin more frequently? Perhaps every 7 days? Or every 3.5 days? Is there any harm in pinning more frequently? After all, ideally it sounds like from what you have just told me that we would put this stuff on an IV drip if we could.

I know it will suck doing this, but view it as a means to an end. You need him to write you a script for at a minimum test and Aromatase inhibitor (AI). HCG of you want it -- some guys take it and love it and some don't use it. And you need him to let you self pin. Be smart and figure out the best approach to lead him there. But he needs to feel like he is the one that came up with the answer -- not some guy he thinks is reading WebMD.

 

[Strat1900]

Megatron,
Okay you talked me into it...I just did a full dose. What's the worst that can happen...I feel better?! Totally agree with being Socratic, that's something I can normally figure out myself, but with this particular urologist when he walks in the examination room he hits the stopwatch and you have 10 minutes. I've seen him twice now and both times he has literally gotten up and walked out the room at the 10 minute mark, so not a lot of time for strategic conversation. The next nearest urologist and endocrinologist is about an hour and a half drive away and I was trying to avoid that drive but I'm thinking I'm going to have to. I was having better luck with my GP so I may take this experience back to him and start over. At least he's willing to spend some time with me. The only reason he referred me to the Urologist is he felt my ED issues may have been related to something else. I don't think so...ED issues fluctuated with my T levels. I appreciate all your help and advise.

 

[Megatron28]

Megatron,
Okay you talked me into it...I just did a full dose. What's the worst that can happen...I feel better?! Totally agree with being Socratic, that's something I can normally figure out myself, but with this particular urologist when he walks in the examination room he hits the stopwatch and you have 10 minutes. I've seen him twice now and both times he has literally gotten up and walked out the room at the 10 minute mark, so not a lot of time for strategic conversation. The next nearest urologist and endocrinologist is about an hour and a half drive away and I was trying to avoid that drive but I'm thinking I'm going to have to. I was having better luck with my GP so I may take this experience back to him and start over. At least he's willing to spend some time with me. The only reason he referred me to the Urologist is he felt my ED issues may have been related to something else. I don't think so...ED issues fluctuated with my T levels. I appreciate all your help and advise.

If your GP is open minded and listens to you that sounds like a good doc. And I think you are starting to see that you can learn how testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) works and help guide your treatment. Sometimes you simply have to view your doc as someone who can give you the script and that's it. We would all like more from the relationship, but it sounds like you have limited choices where you live.

Ask for some cialis with your test and take it every day. Manage your estradiol. That should keep Mr. happy quite Happy.

 

[Spunkey71]

I am fairly new to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but I can speak from experience that a little knowledge can go a very long way. I have brought up several things to my doctor that I have learned from this forum and my doctor is very willing to engage in dialog on the various topics. I think if anything my doctor likes the fact that I am interested and involved in my own treatment and trying to learn as much as I can. I personally feel that in the end it will lead to a better over all treatment outcome, it is hard and uncomfortable to speak up and question your treatment but you have too! Remember it is your well being, body and your money paying for treatment.

 

[frank.tb]

I am fairly new to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but I can speak from experience that a little knowledge can go a very long way. I have brought up several things to my doctor that I have learned from this forum and my doctor is very willing to engage in dialog on the various topics. I think if anything my doctor likes the fact that I am interested and involved in my own treatment and trying to learn as much as I can. I personally feel that in the end it will lead to a better over all treatment outcome, it is hard and uncomfortable to speak up and question your treatment but you have too! Remember it is your well being, body and your money paying for treatment.

Well said brother.

And remember OP, your doctor or anybody's for that matter could have graduated med school as a C student lol

 

[Megatron28]

I am fairly new to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but I can speak from experience that a little knowledge can go a very long way. I have brought up several things to my doctor that I have learned from this forum and my doctor is very willing to engage in dialog on the various topics. I think if anything my doctor likes the fact that I am interested and involved in my own treatment and trying to learn as much as I can. I personally feel that in the end it will lead to a better over all treatment outcome, it is hard and uncomfortable to speak up and question your treatment but you have too! Remember it is your well being, body and your money paying for treatment.

This is obviously what we all seek. I have been fortunate enough to have found this as well. But it a sounds like the OP lives where there are not many doctors to choose from. Even though the US supposedly has the best health care in the world (if you can afford it) that isn't the case in rural areas. The good docs want to live in big cities for the most part. That's why the OP may have to use his powers of persuasion and manipulation to get his doc to do the right thing.

I think his GP sounds promising though.

 

[Strat1900]

Thanks to the new folks, your perspective is appreciated. My GP is young, in fact I think he's there on some sort of internship but he is a doctor. But, it seems he was taught the old protocol in regards to TRT. He's interested in what I have to say and I think I surprised him in few instances with what I knew but I don't think he has a lot of time/inclination to research the new approaches for himself for one of many patients. I also got the impression he has somebody looking over his shoulder at the end of the day so he's not ready to veer too far off the traditional path. My only real gripe with my GP is the length of time it takes to get anything done...to do blood work this office has to send out all their lab work and it takes at least 10 days to get any results back then it takes about another 2 weeks to get an appointment and then he still wants to take a conservative approach. I'm way too impatient, which I know is a problem...I took an injection...I want results NOW! Yeah, I know that's not how it works. I'm just hating the way I feel waiting for things to ramp up.

My last visit with the urologist he said my numbers didn't warrant an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), and I'm not really sure he knew what HCG was...he had kind of a puzzled look when I brought it up. Is HCG a must? I need to try and capitalize on my next 10 minutes with him this Friday. Based on how all that goes will drive if I make my next appointment with him or my GP. Thanks again.

 

[Megatron28]

Thanks to the new folks, your perspective is appreciated. My GP is young, in fact I think he's there on some sort of internship but he is a doctor. But, it seems he was taught the old protocol in regards to TRT. He's interested in what I have to say and I think I surprised him in few instances with what I knew but I don't think he has a lot of time/inclination to research the new approaches for himself for one of many patients. I also got the impression he has somebody looking over his shoulder at the end of the day so he's not ready to veer too far off the traditional path. My only real gripe with my GP is the length of time it takes to get anything done...to do blood work this office has to send out all their lab work and it takes at least 10 days to get any results back then it takes about another 2 weeks to get an appointment and then he still wants to take a conservative approach. I'm way too impatient, which I know is a problem...I took an injection...I want results NOW! Yeah, I know that's not how it works. I'm just hating the way I feel waiting for things to ramp up.

My last visit with the urologist he said my numbers didn't warrant an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), and I'm not really sure he knew what HCG was...he had kind of a puzzled look when I brought it up. Is HCG a must? I need to try and capitalize on my next 10 minutes with him this Friday. Based on how all that goes will drive if I make my next appointment with him or my GP. Thanks again.

I don't take HCG. I am done having kids.

Have you considered calling IMT? Lot's of guys on this forum rave about them and I have observed the great advice they give on this forum. The short answer is they know their shit and they would get you on a good protocol immediately. You wouldn't have to dick around with uneducated docs anymore.

If I were you I would give them a call. You have nothing to lose by making a call. There was a post that Todd from IMT is out until Tues. so wait until then. Or look up Lindsey or Det Oak and contact them if you can't wait. They are with IMT too.

 

[Strat1900]

I'm done having kids too, that was the biggest thing I took away in regards to HCG. I haven't noticed anything shrinking (yet), but seems I thought I heard HCG could also help improve T-levels along with cypionate and smooth out some of the peaks and valleys.

Daily Cialis would be awesome, but my insurance won't cover a daily dose, and I heard it's rather expensive. What would a 30 day supply run $$ wise? I'm not rolling in money, got a kid starting college among other things.

I too have heard good things about IMT and but right now that would be just a dream. Isn't it about $200 a month for their services? While I'm sure it's worth it I probably can't swing that right now.

 

[Megatron28]

I'm done having kids too, that was the biggest thing I took away in regards to HCG. I haven't noticed anything shrinking (yet), but seems I thought I heard HCG could also help improve T-levels along with cypionate and smooth out some of the peaks and valleys.

Daily Cialis would be awesome, but my insurance won't cover a daily dose, and I heard it's rather expensive. What would a 30 day supply run $$ wise? I'm not rolling in money, got a kid starting college among other things.

I too have heard good things about IMT and but right now that would be just a dream. Isn't it about $200 a month for their services? While I'm sure it's worth it I probably can't swing that right now.

HCG does have benefits even if you are done with kids. But it is an added cost (and an expensive one at that) plus one more thing to manage in your protocol. You can supplement with DHEA and Prenenolone instead. But HCG is supposed to give guys a sense of "well being". Your balls will gradually shrink over time. I noticed, but it took my wife over a year to finally take stock and even then she wouldn't have noticed if I didn't say anything. If anything, small testes probably makes my penis look bigger!

You can get Cialis from RUI. Look for the banner at the top of your screen with the Red Lion in it. You could see how a daily dose works on your hamsters and depending on the research results you may decide you want it too. I understand money can be tight at times, but I can think of too many things that are more important than having your penis functioning at 100%. Mr. Happy deserves to be happy.

 

[Spunkey71]

I don't take HCG. I am done having kids.

Have you considered calling IMT? Lot's of guys on this forum rave about them and I have observed the great advice they give on this forum. The short answer is they know their shit and they would get you on a good protocol immediately. You wouldn't have to dick around with uneducated docs anymore.

If I were you I would give them a call. You have nothing to lose by making a call. There was a post that Todd from IMT is out until Tues. so wait until then. Or look up Lindsey or Det Oak and contact them if you can't wait. They are with IMT too.

I spoke with IMT on Friday, just wanted some options in the event my doctor does not comply with my wishes, they want $500 for a 10 week script which includes Test C, HCG and a AI.

 

[Strat1900]

Okay, tell me about DHEA and Pregnenolone. Is this something I should be exploring? What exactly would these two do for me? They appear to be relatively inexpensive. Are there any drawbacks/side effects. Would they effect my bloodwork in any way? You folks are the best.

 

[MOEGREEN]

Not a bad price to pay to make you feel whole again..I am a patient of IMT and could not be happier with them as they changed my life in many ways...Im 47 and feel 25 again.............

 

[Strat1900]

Thanks moe, I'm sure you're right. Push comes to shove I might give them a try but right now I need to see what I can work out using my insurance. I'm growing impatient though. Very impatient.

Still wondering about DHEA and Pregnenolone.

 

[Megatron28]

Okay, tell me about DHEA and Pregnenolone. Is this something I should be exploring? What exactly would these two do for me? They appear to be relatively inexpensive. Are there any drawbacks/side effects. Would they effect my bloodwork in any way? You folks are the best.

The search functionality on this website is your friend.

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/653147-trt-supplements.html

 

[Strat1900]

The search functionality on this website is your friend.

steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/653147-trt-supplements.html

Thank you, but that doesn't appear to be very conclusive. Are DHEA and Preg part of a standard blood test? I don't have my recent results with me but I'll check them when I get home.