TRT & Body Composition..................

[Alpin]

I wanted to know if someone that works out consistently and keeps stable T levels of 1100-1200 ng/dl while on TRT....
does that person increase their metabolic rate and keep body fat percentage lower more so than a guy who is on TRT and stays in the 700-900 ng/dl range ?
both ranges are above mid range and therefore optimal.
What I'm asking basically is, are higher T levels at the far end of the range going to decrease fat accumulation more than someone who chooses to stay at a lower but decent T level ?

 

[Alpin]

What I should add is.....
Guy #1 is working out and eating right and is at 800 ng/dl TT.....
Guy #2 is working out the same and eating right but at 1200 ng/fl TT
(both Guy's are working out the same and eating the same food for arguments sake)
Who is going to gain more lean mass?(does 300-400 ng/dl make a difference)
Will both Guys be able to burn fat the same or will Guy #2 be at a lower body fat mass then Guy #1 ????

 

[HammerT1]

That depends on the genetics more then anything in my worthless opinion at that point. I had a buddy, that I cycled with years ago. He's the one who got me started with gear. We dosed the same, ate the same and same exact workouts. He would always outgrow me, get stronger faster, look leaner etc all things being the same. I'd have to seriously up my doses, eat more and sneak in extra work outs to blow past him. It drove him nuts how out of blue the tables turned. I've seen/known guys who used less then I was and again they were blowing up like crazy.
That being said I like to keep my trt dose just under 800 range. Its sky high right now and the weight loss was greater for me at the lower dose. I wouldn't have dreamed I was as high as I am just based on I stopped dropping the bad weight.

 

[Alpin]

That depends on the genetics more then anything in my worthless opinion at that point. I had a buddy, that I cycled with years ago. He's the one who got me started with gear. We dosed the same, ate the same and same exact workouts. He would always outgrow me, get stronger faster, look leaner etc all things being the same. I'd have to seriously up my doses, eat more and sneak in extra work outs to blow past him. It drove him nuts how out of blue the tables turned. I've seen/known guys who used less then I was and again they were blowing up like crazy.
That being said I like to keep my trt dose just under 800 range. Its sky high right now and the weight loss was greater for me at the lower dose. I wouldn't have dreamed I was as high as I am just based on I stopped dropping the bad weight.

800 peak range or trough ?
What's "sky high right now" mean ?
how much ?

 

[synonymous]

I think it's genetics. From the little I know about cycling, I've been told to start on a X amount of testosterone first and see how you react (Since we all react differently) and then in followup cycles you can start to add more and see how it works for you personally. So, I would imagine it's based on genetics.

 

[HammerT1]

I'm over 1500. I wasn't expecting to be that high or even close to that number. My best guess is just barely over. (I was shooting for 800-900's) Judging by me e level and how little AI, I was taking I must have just tipped that scale to hit greater then. It's a long story. The high 700's would be my lowest T point pre injection for next dose. (Doses spilt into 2 for total of 200mg's weekly) The way I get my labs and when it was done are exactly the same this most recent time.
I'm in the process of letting my T drop, then I'll adjust the dose and retest. I need a set of labs. Dosing for latest test was 250mg a week. I wasn't expecting the jump. Just getting ready for a blast and wanted T levels higher as I jumped into blast mode. But, I needed labs for a doc so figured I could still jump t up a bit and get my t towards upper end.
When I was younger the whole Genticcs discussion would lead to some intresting conservations.

 

[Black Beard]

Yeah it's not just about testosterone. You need to take into account Igf, myostatin, insulin/leptin secretion/sensitivity. Someone on higher test might have a slightly higher chance of having a better comp, but with test, you get a lot diminishing returns. As you go up higher, you get less for what you take. Probably not enough androgen receptors to suck all that test up at the same time too, and that's where genetics come in. All these guys like Kevin Levrone and Ronnie coleman, i'm sure they just blow up on testosterone and they have the drive, willpower, knowledge and genetics to put it to maximum use. There's only one way to really answer that question and that's to experiment. Maybe you can supplement your trt dose with a little extra. Have you blasted before apollon?

 

[Alpin]

Yeah it's not just about testosterone. You need to take into account Igf, myostatin, insulin/leptin secretion/sensitivity. Someone on higher test might have a slightly higher chance of having a better comp, but with test, you get a lot diminishing returns. As you go up higher, you get less for what you take. Probably not enough androgen receptors to suck all that test up at the same time too, and that's where genetics come in. All these guys like Kevin Levrone and Ronnie coleman, i'm sure they just blow up on testosterone and they have the drive, willpower, knowledge and genetics to put it to maximum use. There's only one way to really answer that question and that's to experiment. Maybe you can supplement your trt dose with a little extra. Have you blasted before apollon?

Years ago...
But one thing I noticed is that pharm grade stuff feels way more potent than any UGL lab I used...
I firmly believe small doses is the way to go i.e.
50, 60, 70, even 80 mg E3D or E4D would be used by the body more efficiently than mega shots of 160 to 200 mg/7 days...
Most of those higher shots convert to E2 and a lot of Test is lost....

 

[jomamma007]

Years ago...
But one thing I noticed is that pharm grade stuff feels way more potent than any UGL lab I used...
I firmly believe small doses is the way to go i.e.
50, 60, 70, even 80 mg E3D or E4D would be used by the body more efficiently than mega shots of 160 to 200 mg/7 days...
Most of those higher shots convert to E2 and a lot of Test is lost....

Definitely agree. When i was on 200mgs a week my total test was around 1700 with a free test of 34, then I lowered dose and took and ai and had a total t of 900 and free T of 34, granted most of that was caused by an ai. Still there are diminishing returns.

Still there is more that goes into body compisition then testosterone. It's pretty overrated unless we are talking about cycle dosage. Would a guy with a 1200 total T get better results over the years then a guy with an 800 total T? Sure. But is he going to lose his hair faster? Probably. Will he have to deal with more hema/hemo and bp issues then the guy at 800? Probably. Will he have to be on an ai while the guy with an 800 Total T might be able to squeak by without one? Probably. Being on trt a year straight has literally aged me 3 years. I look more masculine now and I don't really like it to be honest. Probably due to having lower test levels my whole life.

To me I had better gym results with a 600 Total T then a 1000. I didn't have to fus around with estrogen at the lower doses which lead to more consistent workouts. I didn't drop estrogen too low for a few days and have a few cruddy workouts. Also wasn't as hungry on the lower dose which always makes dieting easier. Everyone is different but I'm guessing based off my previous bloods while natural, that my test was around 5-600 at my peak after puberty if that. So that level makes me feel the best. Anymore and I get estrogen issues even though I'm young and lean.

In the end, like all things trt it's very individualized and up to the user at the end of the day.

 

[Alpin]

Definitely agree. When i was on 200mgs a week my total test was around 1700 with a free test of 34, then I lowered dose and took and ai and had a total t of 900 and free T of 34, granted most of that was caused by an ai. Still there are diminishing returns.

Still there is more that goes into body compisition then testosterone. It's pretty overrated unless we are talking about cycle dosage. Would a guy with a 1200 total T get better results over the years then a guy with an 800 total T? Sure. But is he going to lose his hair faster? Probably. Will he have to deal with more hema/hemo and bp issues then the guy at 800? Probably. Will he have to be on an ai while the guy with an 800 Total T might be able to squeak by without one? Probably. Being on trt a year straight has literally aged me 3 years. I look more masculine now and I don't really like it to be honest. Probably due to having lower test levels my whole life.

To me I had better gym results with a 600 Total T then a 1000. I didn't have to fus around with estrogen at the lower doses which lead to more consistent workouts. I didn't drop estrogen too low for a few days and have a few cruddy workouts. Also wasn't as hungry on the lower dose which always makes dieting easier. Everyone is different but I'm guessing based off my previous bloods while natural, that my test was around 5-600 at my peak after puberty if that. So that level makes me feel the best. Anymore and I get estrogen issues even though I'm young and lean.

In the end, like all things trt it's very individualized and up to the user at the end of the day.

Trying to understand what you're saying here. The AI with lowered dose of T kept you at 900 ng/dl ?
I don't think the AI would influence TT. AI would only influence Bio Avail. T since it lowers SHBG.
The lowered T dose itself sounds like a more reasonable excuse for the 900 ng/dl reading you had.

 

[HammerT1]

I basically got called a liar on another forum for saying my labs came back over 1500 at 250mgs a week by a mod. I think people are used to getting low dosed gear. That over 1500 was on an ugl. I'm not looking to rep a brand. I expected it to be a tad but under. Had I known I would have run far less. I need the damn test for my doc.

But yeah 20 years of running gear on and off there's a lot of underdosed or fake crap out there. The one thing I learned is if I don't go to pharma with script in hand to get it I'm not intrested in it. It was all pharam brand back in the day and that's what they faked. These guys have that faking down to a science. I could spend paragraphs plus on that. It isn't hard to fake anything and to do so very cheaply and I'll leave it at that.
I've hit 1100's and the over 1500 on gels and pumps back when I frist started trt. So there is something to real pharma grade T. Sadly, I didn't feel like my T was that high on the gels and pumps for whatever reason. I still felt like crap.
The one thing I forgot about and that's because I have no experience with it. Is being able to increase ones free T with Proivion. Back when I started I always figured part of me being a hard gainer was that I bonded T more easily then my buddy. We didn't have labs back in the day so it was just a theory. That's one of my next experiments is to see how I respond with just the addition of Provion at my normal blast levels. 400mg a week. My next labs I'll get free T n such so I have a baseline.

 

[jomamma007]

Trying to understand what you're saying here. The AI with lowered dose of T kept you at 900 ng/dl ?
I don't think the AI would influence TT. AI would only influence Bio Avail. T since it lowers SHBG.
The lowered T dose itself sounds like a more reasonable excuse for the 900 ng/dl reading you had.

no

100mgs per week with an ai
977 Total T
34(9-26) Free Test

200mgs per week without an ai
1700 Total T
34(9-26) Free T

 

[Alpin]

no

100mgs per week with an ai
977 Total T
34(9-26) Free Test

200mgs per week without an ai
1700 Total T
34(9-26) Free T

Trough or peak ?

 

[Alpin]

I basically got called a liar on another forum for saying my labs came back over 1500 at 250mgs a week by a mod. I think people are used to getting low dosed gear. That over 1500 was on an ugl. I'm not looking to rep a brand. I expected it to be a tad but under. Had I known I would have run far less. I need the damn test for my doc.

But yeah 20 years of running gear on and off there's a lot of underdosed or fake crap out there. The one thing I learned is if I don't go to pharma with script in hand to get it I'm not intrested in it. It was all pharam brand back in the day and that's what they faked. These guys have that faking down to a science. I could spend paragraphs plus on that. It isn't hard to fake anything and to do so very cheaply and I'll leave it at that.
I've hit 1100's and the over 1500 on gels and pumps back when I frist started trt. So there is something to real pharma grade T. Sadly, I didn't feel like my T was that high on the gels and pumps for whatever reason. I still felt like crap.
The one thing I forgot about and that's because I have no experience with it. Is being able to increase ones free T with Proivion. Back when I started I always figured part of me being a hard gainer was that I bonded T more easily then my buddy. We didn't have labs back in the day so it was just a theory. That's one of my next experiments is to see how I respond with just the addition of Provion at my normal blast levels. 400mg a week. My next labs I'll get free T n such so I have a baseline.

I felt some T increase on Androgel at 6 pumps a day. I'd imagine 8 pumps a day of the stuff would produce at least 800 ng/dl TT in me....
Negative side is cost of the stuff....
8 pumps a day is pricey unless insurance pays for it...
but you could rest from injects for a bit...

 

[Virginian]

I wanted to know if someone that works out consistently and keeps stable T levels of 1100-1200 ng/dl while on TRT....
does that person increase their metabolic rate and keep body fat percentage lower more so than a guy who is on TRT and stays in the 700-900 ng/dl range ?
both ranges are above mid range and therefore optimal.
What I'm asking basically is, are higher T levels at the far end of the range going to decrease fat accumulation more than someone who chooses to stay at a lower but decent T level ?

This is a good question and I would like to know the answer as well.

I started TRT 7 months ago at 400mg every 2 weeks. I got rapid improvements in strength, stamina, energy, and body composition. Within 2 months I switched to sub-cutaneous injections and a dose of about 150 mg/week and gains continued. I estimate that my test levels (trough to peak) ranged from about 1200 to 1500 ng/dL at that dose.

Lately I have been at about 100mg/week. I estimate my T levels were in the range of 1000 to 1200. At 100mg/week I seem to have stablized - no detectable further gains and no losses.

I just moved to a lower dose - 88mg/week. In a couple of months I will find out how that dose works.

 

[6four250]

OP - let's say male X and male Y are completely identical not only in genetic composition but in workout length and intensity as well as nutritional intake. The answer is simple. If male X has a T value 300 higher than male Y then absolutely X will have an easier time keeping lean and recovering. If they both start out identical to one another, X will pull ahead due to his higher T values. And, that will grow geometrically to an extent because the higher T means more max gained, more fat burned which then adds to his ability to do both.

 

[jomamma007]

OP - let's say male X and male Y are completely identical not only in genetic composition but in workout length and intensity as well as nutritional intake. The answer is simple. If male X has a T value 300 higher than male Y then absolutely X will have an easier time keeping lean and recovering. If they both start out identical to one another, X will pull ahead due to his higher T values. And, that will grow geometrically to an extent because the higher T means more max gained, more fat burned which then adds to his ability to do both.

Pretty obvious.

But there are sides that come with higher test levels as well, something to consider especially since a 300 higher test level when already in the upper quartile wont yield that much gains. If it was the difference between a 400 and 700 test level, then it would have a greater importance. But between a 900 and 1200 level, not much imo. 900 test level is already in the 95 percentile.

Over time, sure but If you can't get it done with a 900 test level, you're doing it wrong.