Very high Estradiol levels input :)

[jasil]

So, here is the question my Estradiol/E2 levels are double normal range topped out at 42.7 and I'm at 93 Here is the questions I've read a few schools of thought!

!) Don't do anything unless you suffer high estrogen side effects?

2) Start injecting E3D and see if it makes difference in 2-3 weeks?

3) Start a Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and start injecting E3D?

4) Just start a AI?

5) Some oldtimes reminded me there was no such thing as a Aromatase inhibitor (AI) 20-30 years ago guys just lived with it.........which makes me wonder too.

My Doctor first asked do I have symptoms? The problem is are my symptoms really in my head or are they real? My nipples do feel sensitive and I told him that, but is it really that much more than normal? I can't say with a definitive YES, all I know is I don't like that number and he isn't thrilled about it. He wrote me script for Arimidex, and my numbers are high, but he has patients that stay in the 60-70 range and feel fine. He is going to lower my dosage to 150mg/week and I start self injection next week and that will make some difference.


I was on a 200mg/week dose. Let's just say the chart everyone likes to quote on here that shows 1200ng/dl peak dropping to 800ng/dl before the next shot..........lol. My numbers make that seem like a big joke!! I feel really good, strong, energy, maybe a little bloated as of late, and I can't lose weight for the life of me. On a very strict 1900-2100/day diet and I'm not losing a ounce and I'm 6'1@233. I was losing until I started TRT.

Any input would be great!!

 

[Spunkey71]

Yes your E2 is high and needs to be addressed, just because you do not feel a semptom of high E2 doesn't mean that it isn't affecting you. You need to start by injecting every 3.5 days to start with. Personally I would start an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as well once a week but I know others will probable tell you not too, that is a discussion you will need to have with your doctor.

The bloat you feel is the high E2 and in my honest opinion you are not eating enough, at your weight you need more calories, you are close to being in starvaction mode on that low of calories. It also matters what you are eating not just the calories. I have been working with 3J (site sponsor) and I am very happy with my success, have dropped 25 pounds in 7 weeks time.


How long have you been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT)? I gained 15 pounds when I first started on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) from the water retention but once I got my diet down I have lost that plus some!


EDIT: By the way, welcome! There are some very Knowledgeable guys here, look to halfwit and Megatron, they know what they are talking about.

 

[jasil]

I agree I don't like the number either! I have not been on long at all 6 weeks. As far as the diet I've always been ridiculously calorie/carb sensitive. Weight would melt off on a simple 2250-2500 cal a day Keto or Cycled Keto diet, but once I hit 35 or so that stopped like a rock! I would gain weight on anything over 1700-1800 calories a day.

A typical day is:

1/2 cup cooked brown rice
1/2cup cooked whole oats
12 egg whites
12 oz chicken breast
2TB olive oil
2TB Flaxseed
1/2 cup blackberry *must eat
1/2 cup blueberry *must eat
1 cup steamed broccoli *must eat
1 cup steamed kale *must eat
1cup steamed spinach
1 cup greek yogurt plain
64 oz water
1 cup coffee with 1 creamer
12 oz juiced tomatoes *must eat
2 whey protein shakes
2 TB all natural peanut butter or 2oz nuts

That's it!! I was losing about 1-1.25lbs a week then once I started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) that stopped and I'm not losing anything. I just looked at 3J a lot of those before and after look good, but I wonder how much gear some of those guys are on? Some of them don't look vey natural at all.

My sister in law is a famous bodybuilder magazine covers and all and she sent me a carbo rotation diet that fluctuates from 2350-2468 cal/day used for cutting. She took all my info, activity level, sleep schedule, workout, and cardio and I gained 4lbs in 5 weeks. She laughed and said "You must be weighing your food wrong I don't see how you aren't losing weight!"

Maybe I'll email 3J and see what he says.

Back to the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) piece he isn't hell bent one way or the other. He's not a big fan of AI's, but maybe getting it down in 2-3 weeks then stopping coupled with injections every 3.5 days will keep the E at bay.

 

[Mprtz]

People vary, but I would say that 200mg/week and no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is not going to work for the majority of men. Have you checked your back? Acne can sneak up on you on the side you don't usually see in the mirror. Don't know your age, but E that high can be irritating to the prostate too. All my issues on 200mg/week got better when I brought my E down from 70. That required a second .5mg dose of adex.
I predict you will have to chose between taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and reducing your dose quite a bit.

 

[Spunkey71]

I know Megatron reduced his a lot with just switching to 2x a week injections but currently I do not have that option. so that might be a option for you to get your E2 to a managable level without an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I beleive body fat also plays a role in how much Test you convert and I am very heavy so I need the Aromatase inhibitor (AI), but if you are a lot leaner 2x a week injections might be enough.

I have been pleased with 3J, I am eating so much food yet I am dropping the weight every week and I am only doing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) nothing else.

 

[Megatron28]

Splitting your injection into two per week is the first and easiest thing you can do to lower your E2. But at 200mg per week that probably won't lower it enough. You will likely need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as well.

Can you post all your labs? That will give us all more to go on.

 

[jasil]

Not a hint of acne, but I'm a old guy almost 40.

Megatron, it was a last minute panel I wanted to see me trough numbers for test/estradiol. I had a full lipid panel two weeks ago at work and my HDL did drop, so I'm trying to raise that, but Red Rice yeast and Metamucil knocked my total cholesterol down 70 points!! Can't say enough about that.

Total was 126
LDL 88
LDL 38

Cholesterol forum people are saying krill oil and niacin, so I've added that and we will see.

My trough test numbers were:

1410 ng/dl on a 348-1197 scale
93.6 ng/dl Estradiol 7.6-42.6 scale

I'm getting a full work up next week lipids and all, so we wil see what those results are. This will be the day after a injection, I bet the numbers will be ridiculous if my trough was 1410. Arimidex will be here tomorrow just debating what to do.

 

[jasil]

The only test I'm really concerned about is PSA if that number goes up I'm jumping off testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) faster than you can shake a stick. I know two goes under 45 with stage 4 prostate cancer. While there is no link of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) therapy CAUSING cancer it can cause BPH which has been linked to a increase in cancer, but even more importantly testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) acts as a super fuel to Prostate cancer. Since cancer can be present for years before detection assuming its slow growing and not aggressive. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) will make it's presence known quickly.

My number is already high for my age 1.5 on a 0-4.0 scale. While that number is well below the threshold of worry statistics say 40 and 1.5 or above has 15 times greater chance of developing prostate cancer.

Hematocrit was great 46.2 on a 37-51 scale
Blood pressure is fine 120/82 ish but Im on BP drugs anyway

 

[halfwit]

You're probably looking at a reduction in your testosterone as well as going E3.5D. I'm surprised your doctor is okay with your numbers being so high as that is technically supraphysiological, which can get him into some hot water. As far as prostate concerns go, you should be aware that it's the DHT and Estradiol that are the main culprits with effecting PSA values, not the testosterone directly. Sadly, test gets all the blame for what our body does with it, which we can control with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). (DHT isn't usually as much of a concern with IM use, that's more of a topical/transdermal problem)

My .02c

 

[jasil]

You're probably looking at a reduction in your testosterone as well as going E3.5D. I'm surprised your doctor is okay with your numbers being so high as that is technically supraphysiological, which can get him into some hot water. As far as prostate concerns go, you should be aware that it's the DHT and Estradiol that are the main culprits with effecting PSA values, not the testosterone directly. Sadly, test gets all the blame for what our body does with it, which we can control with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). (DHT isn't usually as much of a concern with IM use, that's more of a topical/transdermal problem)

My .02c

We will see I surely wish studies would track that piece but unfortunately they do not. Testerone is the main culprit. Look the number 1 treatment for stage 4 prostate cancer....if it was just what you mentioned a Aromatase inhibitor (AI) could treat it. What you get is the equivalent of chemical castration reducing T levels to almost zero and cancer will just about stop growing for at least 3 years. There are cases of people making it 10 and going strong.

Hopefully my number is unchanged and I won't have to worry about it.

 

[Mprtz]

We will see I surely wish studies would track that piece but unfortunately they do not. Testerone is the main culprit. Look the number 1 treatment for stage 4 prostate cancer....if it was just what you mentioned a Aromatase inhibitor (AI) could treat it. What you get is the equivalent of chemical castration reducing T levels to almost zero and cancer will just about stop growing for at least 3 years. There are cases of people making it 10 and going strong.

Hopefully my number is unchanged and I won't have to worry about it.

There are new studies that call into question that elevated testosterone will accelerate cancer. The fact that total T deprivation halts cancer growth has led to the assumption that more T = more cancer growth, but new research indicates that T has more of a "permissive" effect, meaning that some is necessary for cancer to progress but that more will NOT make the cancer grow faster. Check into it. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

 

[jasil]

Okay I will.

 

[Mprtz]

Btw I'm 50 and I sprouted acne on my back and shoulders on 200mg/week when my estradiol was 70. You don't have to be young or have a history of acne for this to happen.

Also, my PSA has gone down from .9 to .7 so far on TRT.

 

[BigRussT]

Get on some aromasin, see if that helps. Try .25 EOD and adjust accordingly. An Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should be used during cycle.

 

[Megatron28]

Also note where your estrogen comes from. It is via aromatization of testosterone.

So drop your T to zero and "castrate" yourself to prevent aromatization or just use an AI?

 

[halfwit]

There are new studies that call into question that elevated testosterone will accelerate cancer. The fact that total T deprivation halts cancer growth has led to the assumption that more T = more cancer growth, but new research indicates that T has more of a "permissive" effect, meaning that some is necessary for cancer to progress but that more will NOT make the cancer grow faster. Check into it. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Thanks mprtz, you beat me to it.

Early work on the hormonal basis of prostate cancer focused on the role of androgens, but more recently estrogens have been implicated as potential agents in the development and progression of prostate cancer.

You'll probably have to google it and view the cache, but the study goes on to support what was stated.
Source

There are a couple more studies out there, but I'm sure you can find them too.