Very Low Total T 2 weeks after PCT

BigNotch44

New member
Alright, so this is my first thread and I'm seeking some experienced advice. Thought I did things right in my post cycle therapy (pct) but learned I timed it a little early--guess this is why it's still a learning experience for me. So here are the cycle stats:

weeks 1-4: 500mg Cyp, 400mg Dec, 25mg Dbol
weeks 5-7: 500mg Cyp, 400mg Dec
weeks 8-10: 500mg Cyp, 300mg Dec, 50mg Winny

Wanted to run to week 12 and taper cyp + dec but ran out of test (bastard cut my bottle short).

So post cycle therapy (pct) started 1 week after last shot (should have waited 3 weeks bc of esters--lesson learned)

weeks 1-3: 250IU ED Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), 20mg Nolva ED
weeks 4-5: 20mg Nolva ED

Noticed that my boys shrunk some after I stopped the HCG. They did recover while on the HCG. I didn't adjust doses and simply stuck with the plan (probably another learning lesson). Once I stopped Nolva, definitely started to feel lethargic and lack of motivation. It's crazy but my sex drive is still fine and my workouts are still strong. 2 weeks after post cycle therapy (pct) I decided to get my blood work done and the results [drum roll...]

Total Test = 51 ng/dL
Free Test = 7.4 pg/mL :Pat:

Yeah, about as low as a teenage girl...

I just ordered some more blood work to get the LH and FSH levels to make sure it's not primary hypogonadism. Should get that sometime next week. In the meantime I want to react to this data and see if I can get the HPTA back up and running. My plan:

weeks 1-2 250IU Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), 50mg Proviron
weeks 3-4 100mg Clomid, 40mg Nolva
weeks 5 50mg Clomid, 20mg Nolva

Unfortunately I don't have any test levels pre-cycle but I have recovered from my previous runs (4 previously)--at least mentally and physically but no way to know for sure. All other blood work looks in line with my prec-cycle bench mark (except for slightly elevated hemo and hermat which is sort of expected).

Would like to get everyone's opinion on my next plan of attack. Would like to hold off any TRT. Thanks for the inputs in advance!
 
welcome to ologyt


your 1st post cycle therapy (pct) was awfull and your 2nd post cycle therapy (pct) isnt any better . Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppresive and should be run before post cycle therapy (pct) starts NOT during post cycle therapy (pct).run clomid at 50 mg a day for 3-4 weeks , throw in 20 mg of nolva if you want to.
 
You also should have been running your test another 2-3 weeks longer than Deca, and seeing as you started your post cycle therapy (pct) 1 week after your last shot of Deca, it probably didn't do a lot of good.
 
Thanks guys. I hear mixed opinions on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and when it should be run. Doesn't Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) aromatase only in higher dosages? So you guys only stick to Nolva/Clomid for post cycle therapy (pct)?

Tapering the test was my plan for 2 weeks after my last deca shot but my source cut my bottles short by 1cc each! Will find another source...
 
Thanks guys. I hear mixed opinions on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and when it should be run. Doesn't Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) aromatase only in higher dosages? So you guys only stick to Nolva/Clomid for post cycle therapy (pct)?

Tapering the test was my plan for 2 weeks after my last deca shot but my source cut my bottles short by 1cc each! Will find another source...

hcg suppresses natural test . thats why its NOT used during pct not because it does or doesnt aromatize.
 
BTW, going to start clomid 50mg ED and Nolva 20mg today. Will let you guys know how the recovery progresses.

For my learning experience, would you recommend running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 250IU 2/week during cycle to keep the testes "up and running" or do you not recommend the stuff at all? What's all the hype really about with HCG?
 
BTW, going to start clomid 50mg ED and Nolva 20mg today. Will let you guys know how the recovery progresses.

For my learning experience, would you recommend running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 250IU 2/week during cycle to keep the testes "up and running" or do you not recommend the stuff at all? What's all the hype really about with HCG?

hcg during cycle is fine , some do a few hundred iu every week and some do a Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast at the end .
 
Okay, so a lesson here is that I obviously did my PCT wrong--wouldn't have the incredibly low total T if I did (at least that's what I think I should expect out of a PCT regimen). In order to not only recover from this one but avoid another crash I'd like to nail down an "ideal" approach (depending on esters lengths etc.) I found the below article that contradicts not using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for post cycle therapy (pct). Please read and debate. Would be good learning for all of us new guys like me.



Understanding Post Cycle ***8220;T***8221; Recovery
By William Llewellyn

O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You***8217;ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can***8217;t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.

The Axis

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body***8217;s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization & Post-Cycle LH Levels

Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.

Post Cycle Testosterone Levels

Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.

The Role of Anti-estrogens

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.

HCG

So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.

Finalizing the Program

An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use on-cycle). My experience with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.

Sample Post-cycle Plan:

Week 3: 5000IU Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily


In Closing

I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn***8217;t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.
 
dont pay attention to that artice Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppresive stop Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) before pct starts and 20 mg pof nolva isnt enough mininum of 40 mg of nolva if ran by itself but clomid is better .
 
I trust that you're right. Obviously my blood work agrees. Lesson learned and hopefully my HPTA will recover. Once it does and I run another cycle here's my plan:

1) Run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 250IE 2/week during cycle
2) Cut out long ester anabolics 2-3 weeks prior to cessation of testosterone
3) Possibly switch to shorter ester test and cease long ester test (if in regimen) 2-3 weeks prior to end of cycle
4) If on shorter ester test wait 3-4 days for Clomid/Nolva post cycle therapy (pct). If ending with longer ester wait 2-3 weeks.

Let me know your thoughts and if you'd add or do anything slightly different. I would ideally like to avoid a crash next time.
 
I trust that you're right. Obviously my blood work agrees. Lesson learned and hopefully my HPTA will recover. Once it does and I run another cycle here's my plan:

1) Run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 250IE 2/week during cycle
2) Cut out long ester anabolics 2-3 weeks prior to cessation of testosterone
3) Possibly switch to shorter ester test and cease long ester test (if in regimen) 2-3 weeks prior to end of cycle
4) If on shorter ester test wait 3-4 days for Clomid/Nolva post cycle therapy (pct). If ending with longer ester wait 2-3 weeks.

Let me know your thoughts and if you'd add or do anything slightly different. I would ideally like to avoid a crash next time.

much better .

wait from last injection until pct is about

test eth or cyp or any steroid with eth ester 2 weeks

eq , deca , sustanon , omnas is 3 weeks.
 
welcome to ologyt


your 1st post cycle therapy (pct) was awfull and your 2nd post cycle therapy (pct) isnt any better . Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppresive and should be run before post cycle therapy (pct) starts NOT during post cycle therapy (pct).run clomid at 50 mg a day for 3-4 weeks , throw in 20 mg of nolva if you want to.

This^
 
Just wanted to update you guys on this...

Test is still low 91ng/dl :flamingma

I ran 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolva twice a day (AM and PM) for 1 week. Then only once a day for 2 weeks (this Saturday).

I came across this post:

steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/56201-how-prevent-treat-permanent-shut-down.html

They suggested the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for a restart. What is everyone's thoughts on this for my case? Seems like my system is shut down pretty hard (maybe was before). Any other suggestions would also be appreciated.

Also to note my LH and FSH are low indicating secondary hypogonadism.
 
Give it some time. There is absolutely, unequivocally, no such thing as a "get my HPTA back to normal in 2-4 weeks regimen". I would be surprised to see nominal blood work within double that time frame. Relax, eat and exercise properly, and let your body recover.

Poly
 
Point well taken. I've been definitely battling this one...

Would you recommend I stay on the clomid and nolva till blood work is normal? My estradiol was lowered so at least that is not suppressing me now (was high).
 
If I read your previous posts correctly (I usually don't!), you are already 2 weeks into your revamped post cycle therapy (pct), correct? If so, I would continue with your current protocol for another couple of weeks. Then, wait one month, and have your basic andrology workup redrawn. Go from there. I know it seems like a long time to wait, but hormonal changes take time. Especially in males. I've had several knowledgeable fertility docs (my wife and I have seen several) relay the following axiom to me:

Women are complex with respect to endocrinology, but their hormones can be manipulated rather quickly. Men are simpler hormonally, but changes occur at a slower pace.

Hope this helps.

Poly
 
You're right--I'm just finishing up my 3rd week of my second post cycle therapy (pct).

Thanks for the input and it makes a lot of sense. For some reason I seem to have a really SLOW negative feedback in my HPTA. It's crazy because another bro of mine did the same post cycle therapy (pct) routine (the original incorrect one) and he's fully recovered. Kind of makes me wonder if my HPTA was already damaged from previously used "legal" gear when I was 20-21 (M1T, 1AD, etc).

I'm also going to see a fertility doc who will probably relay the same info to me. At this point I'm self medicating but I'd like to get a doctor to overlook my protocols and prescriptions. I didn't do this before and I anticipate having this resource will be beneficial to my overall health and goals.

I'll continue to post my progress to see if I can relay any info that can help other bros that respond in the manner I do after discontinuing a cycle.
 
Alright, so it's been a long road to recovery. But I have a lot of data and clarity of my situation. Here's the run down:

8/26 - Total T at 51 :bash:
9/2 - Total T at 68 :thumbsdow

*Ran 4 weeks of Clomid and Nolva therapy

10/5 - Total T at 417 and Free T at 8.5 :worried:

* Ran 2500IU E4D Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for 2 weeks

10/19 - Total T at 897 and Free T at 16.1 :beertoast

At that point, besides the mediocre free test, I felt that I recovered. The low T symptoms were gone and I immediately put on a good amount of muscle (nice to see my work in the gym progressing rather than regressing).

So I got more blood work done to make sure my levels were good (along with a host of other hormone related tests)....

11/4 - Total T at 398 and Free T at 8.1 :bash:

The 11/4 results looks very similar to that of 10/5 which the doc and I both feel now is my baseline.

The advice I'd like to seek is what route to take now. I think there are probably a couple options:

1) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + natural adrenal support supplements (DHEA, pregnenolone, stinging needle, etc.)

2) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + Testosterone Lipoderm cream + natural adrenal support

3) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + Testosterone Cyp

4) Testosterone Cyp only

What would you guys lean towards, or what else would you add to my options? Thanks ahead of time for the inputs.
 
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