Very unhappy with TRT

[cal]

Hi guys,

I have some really huge issues and feel like my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) journey might already be over before it even started.
I had always have low testosterone and also low LH and it took me over 10 years to finally find a doctor who agreed that I have too little T.
I have been to all endocrinologists in my region and also urologists. I was already giving up and then I decided to give it one last try and then
went to an endocrinologist who I hadn't seen before and on that day my T was absolutely low and then he also said that I need TRT.
My issue is simply too little LH. Why it's so low is unknown. A brain MRI was be done too. Nothing was found.

So I had really high hopes in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I thought it was lift my mood and make me feel better and yadda. But it doesn't. I have been on T gel for 3 months now.
I can tell that I'm absorbing because my testicles have become much smaller now. But I don't feel any better at all. Why? I have an appointment in a few days
with my doctor but I don't really know what to say to him.
I mean there are so many problems now. First of all the gel is really bad on my skin. It's not really a long term solution.
But then I can only choose between nebido and 250mg injections every 3 weeks. Self-injecting doesn't seem to be possible. The testosterone enathat which is available over here in Europe also cannot be stored once it's opened. I don't know if we have T cyp here or only T enathat.

And another really big issue is that my testicles have become so small. I don't think that I want children but at the same time I don't want to kill my balls for good. I know that a lot of guys in the US simply use testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) + HCG but this doesn't seem to be practiced in Europe. What do I do now?
I really hate this feeling which I now have. My scrotum is tensed all the time. It's never relaxed. I don't know why. But now my balls are pulled against my groin all the time and it looks really stupid and I also don't know if this isn't also dangerous. What if the testicles can now move more freely in the scrotum and then get twisted?

I'm also not keen on injections because I read about side effects of injections like fainting or getting a micro embolism. I'm a pretty skinny person and I don't have much muscle mass, also not on the butt, and I imagine that injecting into the muscle is a lot harder when the person doesn't have much mass to inject into. What if this increases the risks of injecting into a blood vessel?

 

[300winmag]

Gel is terrible for some it was for me. Injections are not to bad, but I can tell you every three weeks on injections is going to kill you. But I think if you tried it you would see a difference. As for HCG it does help with your balls it did mine, try and get that as well. Now for injections even if they perscribe it to you every three weeks as long as you get enough needles you should be able to split that does into weekly doses of of 80mgs or so. I am on ethanate as well and it shouldnt be any different that stuff can be reused again as long as its in a vial, I use the same vial for over a month.

 

[Megatron28]

Tell your doctor you don't like the gel because it irritates your skin and you worry about transferring it to your girlfriend. Ask for injections. Even a skinny person can inject. You may need a shorter needle though if you have very little muscle mass.

 

[cal]

Hi,

I really don't know if I could inject myself. I'm already anxious and after reading about the side effects which could happen after or during an injection I don't think I'd dare to. And I also doubt that my endocrinologist would even allow me to inject on my own at home. If he says no then I can't do much.

I also don't think that I will get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). My doc is a regular endocrinologist and in Europe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine is much more conservative than in America. I also did some research and I think that HCG is only used on men temporarily to induce fertility but not as long term add-on to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I also don't think that the insurance would pay for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I bet HCG isn't cheap either. What do I do if I simply cannot get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)?

And another problem is that HCG raises estradiol. And then I'd likely need to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), too. But AIs also don't seem to be used in Europe.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Tell your doctor you don't like the gel because it irritates your skin and you worry about transferring it to your girlfriend. Ask for injections. Even a skinny person can inject. You may need a shorter needle though if you have very little muscle mass.

yep and it should be every week for most stable levels, NOT every 2-3 weeks like some docs push.

 

[300winmag]

Hi,

I really don't know if I could inject myself. I'm already anxious and after reading about the side effects which could happen after or during an injection I don't think I'd dare to. And I also doubt that my endocrinologist would even allow me to inject on my own at home. If he says no then I can't do much.

I also don't think that I will get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). My doc is a regular endocrinologist and in Europe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine is much more conservative than in America. I also did some research and I think that HCG is only used on men temporarily to induce fertility but not as long term add-on to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I also don't think that the insurance would pay for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I bet HCG isn't cheap either. What do I do if I simply cannot get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)?

And another problem is that HCG raises estradiol. And then I'd likely need to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), too. But AIs also don't seem to be used in Europe.

If you can not inject in person you can go to the doctor every three weeks but I can promise you will feel terrible on that regime. but if you can not inject at all and gel doesnt work your kind of out of options at this point. I guess there are patches. As far as HCG it cost me about 180 bucks and that last 2-3 months, but thats a needle to, and you have to do that at least 1-3 times weekly, so would you want to go to the doctor every week multiple times. As far side effects from injections I dont know what you are talking about, other minor soreness at times, what other issues are there.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Hi,

I really don't know if I could inject myself. I'm already anxious and after reading about the side effects which could happen after or during an injection I don't think I'd dare to. And I also doubt that my endocrinologist would even allow me to inject on my own at home. If he says no then I can't do much.

I also don't think that I will get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). My doc is a regular endocrinologist and in Europe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine is much more conservative than in America. I also did some research and I think that HCG is only used on men temporarily to induce fertility but not as long term add-on to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I also don't think that the insurance would pay for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I bet HCG isn't cheap either. What do I do if I simply cannot get Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)?

And another problem is that HCG raises estradiol. And then I'd likely need to take an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), too. But AIs also don't seem to be used in Europe.

hcg is if you care about ball size, if not, no need for it.
if you cant pin at first then go to doc every week and have him pin you.
I have been pinning ew for over 5 or 6 years now (hrt AND cycles) and if you do it safely it is NOT bad. the first few times you will worry and over think. but if you do it clean and safe issues will not happen.
have doc do it till your a little more settled about it.
good luck

 

[DADAWG]

hcg is if you care about ball size, if not, no need for it.
if you cant pin at first then go to doc every week and have him pin you.
I have been pinning ew for over 5 or 6 years now (hrt AND cycles) and if you do it safely it is NOT bad. the first few times you will worry and over think. but if you do it clean and safe issues will not happen.
have doc do it till your a little more settled about it.
good luck

a lot of mom and pop drugstores will give the injects if your their customer also almost everyone knows someone whos a nurse.

 

[ScottyB28]

Man injections are the way to go, but you have to atleast do it weekly. If he don't wanna do that, then find another doc. I'm on test c now with hcg, my insurance doesn't cover the hcg and it's $200 for a 10cc bottle of 10,000iu. But you only need 1/4cc twice a week so it lasts a good while.

 

[ws2006]

I have not tried the gel - after doing a lot of reading on here it seemed to me injections were the way to go. I have been injecting for a few months now and really have noticed some great results with very few sides. Self injecting is the way to go - agree with the above post that it allows you to split your dose more evenly. If you don't split it you will feel like crap for the last two weeks of your three week cycle. HCG keeps my boys normal - good to add it in if you can get it.

 

[riprockwell]

Personally, you can do injections, you just don't want to and I can understand your feeling of anxiety because of the whole concept. However, if you want to feel better, that is something you will have to do. Gels freaking killed me man. My estrogen was high as shit, causing high blood pressure, erectile issues, etc. Injections are a piece of cake. At first, it can be scary because it is the first time you are doing it. Kind of like getting pussy for the first time.

Honestly, I would do some research out there and see what you can find in terms of a knowledgeable testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doc where you live. I am pretty sure this forum sponsor IMT can't work with you because you are living in Europe. However, this forum is loaded full of information on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Protocols. So again, this process make take a little time, but you just have to be patient and do your research. Every 3 week injections are no good. And at the point in my life where I was pondering testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), if I couldn't have found a knowledgeable doc, I would self medicate because I couldn't continue feeling the way I felt with such low levels. You also need to get on some HCG as well. Those are small injections in the stomach so don't sweat balls over it too. Injections are safe and I have been injecting for years and years and years and have never injected in to a vein or had an infection, etc.

 

[cal]

Yo guys,
the problem is that you're all in America right? In Europe testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is much less sophisticated. I lent a book on andrology written by leading european endocrinologists. The entire book does not even touch on the subject of aromatase inhibitors! It's really unbelievable. HCG is used but as far as I know only short term to get you fertile but not as a long term add-on to TRT.
My worries are that if the balls become smaller and smaller then could this not also be really risky in terms of the balls moving around in the sac and then getting twisted and cutting off the blood supply? Cause that's a real emergency. I don't know if this risk exists. But I imagine that the smaller the balls are the more easily they can turn around their axis and get twisted.

And what also bothers me is that I dont feel better on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I cannot say how high my levels are now under the current dose which I use. My doc wants to do a blood test after 24 hours to see where my T is at at the lowest point. But this will not tell me how high my T is at the peak.
I guess if my T at the lowest point is within the normal range and not below it then my doc will say that my dose is high enough then.

Another thing is that in my labs which I had done after a few weeks on my lower starting dose my T was still way too low but at the same time my dht was over the top. I cannot say exactly why. I assume it's because of the testosterone from the gel being converted into dht in the skin.
Now I'm using 2 x more gel to bring my T up but now I wonder where's my dht now? What if it's now twice as high as before? Would this be a health risk?
I don't know if getting supraphysiological dht would be a reason to quit gel. I also dont feel the dht. I read that dht is even better than testosterone because it's what makes you feel good on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but then why didn't I feel good? Lots of questions.
Or what if having totally high dht causes baldness? That would also be a very high price to pay. And I definitely dont want to take propecia. I have read a lot of bad things about it.

As for side effects on injections. I read the instructions of nebido and 250mg testosterone enathat and it mentioned stuff like having trouble breathing as a reaction to the injection and stuff like that. This sounded pretty scary. I also wonder what would happen if you injected into a blood vessel? Would this be lethal or cause a stroke? I really don't think that I could inject on my own. I'd probably already get panic when a doctor gave me an injection after reading about the side effects...

 

[Ratt64]

Cal,

You need to relax man. I'm also a very skinny guy and I inject in my quad muscle with no issues to date (3 yrs). You need to get away from the gels they work for some but not all.
If you have access to nebido, I would personnally give that a try as the longer ester only requires an injection every 8-10 weeks depending on your levels.
As far as trouble breathing as a reaction to the injection, it happens when you nick a vein, but if you inject properly you shouldn't have a problem.
When you inject you pull back on the plugger, if you don't get blood in the syringe you are good to go. In the 3 yrs I have been injecting I have yet to hit a vien.
If you do inject some Test in the blood stream you may feel shitty for a short period of time but I don't think it could be lethal or cause a stroke.
Get your doc to inject the nebido, once you get your T levels up you will understand just how bad you have been feeling and you'll never want to go back.
Also you mentioned about AI's, I know that many guys including myself here don't need to use ai's. You would have to see how you feel once your test levels get into a good range and if you have symptoms then you could see your endo to see if he/she will prescribe it.
Best of luck

 

[300winmag]

Cal,
you need to relax there are possible side effects to taking tylenol or having a beer. And to be honest with every breath you take your taking a risk. Basically you have identified a problem but are ruling out all methods to fix those becuause you are over reacting. In the end if you dont feel safe, continue with what you are doing and stay at your current state of well being.

 

[cal]

Hi, what does it mean when gels don't work? Are you talking about not being absorbed?
But the stuff gets absorbed this is for sure cause my balls shrink. Is it even possible that gels raise your T but at the same time you dont feel better
while injections would make you feel better? To me this makes not much sense. I mean T is T, right?

I also wonder what kind of levels does nebido produce? Does it produce mediocre levels where you're in the middle of the range? What if that's not enough to make me feel better?
What's weird is that I have had high free T in the past a couple of times where my free androgen index was 70% which is really high and I cannot say I felt better. I don't understand this. But no doctor could explain this to me either. What if T simply doesn't have the effects on me which it has for others?

And what's also a risk is that I also have a chronic skin eczema which is has something to do with oil. I asked a dermo if getting on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) would make the eczema worse and he said yes cause then more oil is produced. What if I go on nebido and then have this stuff in me for 3 months and my eczema flares up? Then I can't do anything. Gel or shorter injections would be less problematic. But the shorter injections also cause bigger spikes. I really dont know what I should do.
I wish i had access to all the stuff which people in America have like hcg and AIs. Here in Europe it's like half ass testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).

 

[Ratt64]

Cal,
What blood work have you had done prior to and since starting trt?
Did the endo check your thyroid levels? Hypothyroidism can cause hypogonadism.
If you have any blood work results, post them with the ranges and it may help identify something that the doctor doesn't see as a problem.

 

[cal]

Yes, I have labs from before testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I started with the gel in October.

Thyroid labs:

June:
FT3 4,4 pg/ml Norm: 2-5
FT4 14 pmol/l Norm: 9,5-18
TSH 4,02 uU/ml Norm: 0.4-2.5


August:
FT3 4.3 pg/ml Norm: 2,3-4,2
TSH 2.4 uU/ml Norm: 0,3-4,2
FT4 1,3 ng/dl Norm: 0,9-1,8

October:
FT3 3.9 pg/ml Norm: 2-4,3
TSH 4.1 uU/ml Norm: 0,3-4,2

Last extensive lab before going on TRT

fT3 4.3 normal range: 2-5pg/ml
fT4 14 normal range: 9-18 pmol/l
TSH 4 normal range:0.5-2.5 uU/ml

TPO-antibodies 10 normal range: 0-35 U/ml
eGFR 60 normal range: 60-140 ml/min
CK 90 normal range: 0-190 U/l

cholesterol 160 normal range 100-200 mg/d
HDL 53 normal range: 40-120 mg/dl
LDL 90 normal range: 0-160 mg/dl

HBA1c 5 normal range 4-6%
GPT 25 normal range: 0-50 U/l
GOT 30 normal range: 0-50 U/l

dhea 3000 normal range: 950-6500 ng/ml
prolactine 11 normal range: 2.5-17 ng/ml
cortisol 120 normal range: 50-250 ng/ml
ACTH 15 normal range: 10-48 pg/ml
IGF-1 275 normal range: 115-360 ng/ml
hgh 0.05 normal range: 0-0.8 ng/ml

LH 0.7 normal range: 0.8-7 mU/ml
FSH 2.5 normal range: 0.8-11 mU/ml
estradiol 33 normal range: 0-56 pg/ml
shbg 25 normal range: 13-70 nmol/l
testosterone 1.30 normal range: 3-9 ng/ml
free androgen index 16 normal range 30-110
androstenedion 1.45 normal range: 0.7-3.5 ng/ml

results of GnRh / TRH test:

LH (start): 0.7 mU/ml
LH (after 30 minutes) 15 mU/ml

FSH (start) 2.3 mU/m (normal range: 0.9-11 mU/ml)
FSH (after 30 minutes) 3.90 mU/m

prolactine (start) 11 ng/ml
prolactine (after 30 minutes) 68 ng/ml

After 4 weeks on the starter dose of testosterone gel I had these results:

LH 0.5 normal range: 0.8-7 mU/mll
estradiol 28 normal range: 0-56 pg/ml
shbg 25 normal range: 13-70 nmol/l
testosterone 2,90 normal range: 3-9 ng/ml
DHT 1009 normal range: 250-1000

As you can see my DHT is really high even at the low dose of the gel while my serum T is still too low. I am now using 2 x more gel. I will have labs done next week.
Then I will see where my T, LH, E2 and DHT is at. But my doc wants me to come 24hours after the last application to see where I'm at at the lowest point.
But then I also don't know how high my DHT and E2 are when I'm peaking. This sucks a bit.
I really worry that the gel drives my DHT too high.

 

[cal]

Btw, is anyone here using clomid instead of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)? Why do all people recommend hcg but not clomid? Is clomid less safe than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)?
From what I read clomid can be used to treat hypogonadism as well and it would be easier to take cause it's not an injection.
Do you know if clomid is generally safe? I remember a urologist told me years ago that clomid is "too dangerous".

 

[NorCalTRT]

Btw, is anyone here using clomid instead of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)? Why do all people recommend hcg but not clomid? Is clomid less safe than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)?
From what I read clomid can be used to treat hypogonadism as well and it would be easier to take cause it's not an injection.
Do you know if clomid is generally safe? I remember a urologist told me years ago that clomid is "too dangerous".

Daily dose 25 mg Clomid doubles men's T levels~Clomid can help men with low testosterone levels and low sex drive. Researchers at the Centro de Andrologia e Urologia in Porto Alegre, Brazil came to this conclusion after studying 125 hypogonadal men. The participants in the Brazilian study had a testosterone level of 300-400 nanograms per decilitre. Their levels were within the limits of what doctors regard as normal "200-1200 nanograms per decilitre" but they were on the low side. The men complained of lack of libido.

Read the rest of this artice ->>> Daily dose 25 mg Clomid doubles men?s T levels

 

[NorCalTRT]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22951175