What Is an "optimized" TRT level in Canada??

[halfape211]

Previously Doctor told me I could not go over 1000 ng/dl and I accepted that. Today I left Doctors office with a TT number of 30 nmol/l which only equals 864 ng/dl. Today he tells me I'm at 30 nmol/l. And that I'm over the 1000 mark and have to reduce my T injections because in Canada the range is 8-28. When I got home I see that 8-28 is the average range and that 28 is equal to only 864 ng/dl!!! So I am not over 1000!!

Can someone familiar with the Canadian way of doing TRT, help me sort out how much bullshit I'm getting?? How high should I be able to go in total T here in Canada under TRT? What TT numbers does your Canadian Doctors allow you to maintain?? And are they Family docs, anti-aging or other specialities. I believe at least one of the forum members here is allowed to stay at 1000.

Anyways I need some help so I can go back to my doctor and get the max TT I should be allowed her in Canada. He wants me to decrease dosage and go down to 800. Are there guidelines or he bullshitting me??

Thanks

 

[Alpin]

What type of doc is this?
If I may ask?
I am very aware of these lab ranges and your doc sounds misinformed. How many days from shot are you when at 30 nmol/l?
I am VERY well aquaintef with canadian docs and their ignorance, incompetence, when treating T levels in men.

 

[Alpin]

Another respectable lab in canada has TT range of 7.6-31.4 nmol/l. They actually lowered it from 38 nmol/l that was their max range 6 years back.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

A little off, but optimised would be a little over 1000ng/dl. I run at 1400-1600ng/dl (Trough/Peak) and is what I would consider optimised.

 

[halfape211]

What type of doc is this?
If I may ask?
I am very aware of these lab ranges and your doc sounds misinformed. How many days from shot are you when at 30 nmol/l?
I am VERY well aquaintef with canadian docs and their ignorance, incompetence, when treating T levels in men.

Thanks for chiming in APOLLON. I've been reading the your posts for some time, to find out about the limitations of 'Canadian TRT'. I can't seem to access them all.
My Doc has his own Anti-Aging Clinic. He studied Hormones, TRT, etc. abroad for two extra years after practising as a MD for several years. I'm four days after my shot and I split my dose up into two shots per week.

My doc leveled with me and said if he goes above the Normal Range, he's opening himself up for legal action from me or my family. The lab range he uses is 8 to 28. If you could tell me the name of the other Canadian lab with that higher range, I might be able to belay his fears of going above his "Normal". Info like that could be a BIG help to me. You say my doc sounds misinformed. That's very interesting. Yes, I find him well meaning, but kind of inexperienced. He told me that TRT was part science and part art. I agree with him. There is a lot of unknown.

BTW, even though my T level is 28 (860). I'm trying to get my doc to increase my T levels because I'm still suffering from various symptoms, especially memory problems, like remembering words or even people's names. At 860, I'm way better than I was, but I only give myself a 6 out of 10 on being 'cured'. I'm worried that I may not get enough T to get me better.

 

[halfape211]

A little off, but optimised would be a little over 1000ng/dl. I run at 1400-1600ng/dl (Trough/Peak) and is what I would consider optimised.

I don't want to ask you anything you may not want to answer, so I'll ask you the question in this manner: Are doctors ok with 1400-1600? It would be great if they were ok with it.

Do you notice a big difference between 1000 and your 1400-1600? Do you feel mentally better? Or are you at 1600 for the muscle? (I'm not criticizing you if you are at 1600 for the 'physical advantages, not for a moment.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

I don't want to ask you anything you may not want to answer, so I'll ask you the question in this manner: Are doctors ok with 1400-1600? It would be great if they were ok with it.

Do you notice a big difference between 1000 and your 1400-1600? Do you feel mentally better? Or are you at 1600 for the muscle? (I'm not criticizing you if you are at 1600 for the 'physical advantages, not for a moment.

What's not to answer here, we're all here to help each other

Most doctors will not want you to exceed the top of the range, however some will be alright with having levels a little over and where my levels (1400-1600) is where the complete cut off should be IMO, any higher and it's turning into more of a cycle/cruise/call it what you will... Higher test generally means more sides (more e2, more DHT, higher BP, quicker increase in RBC count etc etc). Generally, optimised would be getting more benefits from a bit more test without running into sides. However, in saying that, I have every intention of dropping those levels down as I age to somewhere more appropriate for longevity - 1000ng/dl at say when I'm 40 or 50 is pretty damn good.

Obviously, the extra benefits of sitting where I am is the increased libido, aggression in the gym, extra energy and sense of well-being (which many say you adjust to the well-being and it is true after sometime however I still feel pretty golden all the time, bear in mind I should look at adding hCG in soon which will contribute) and obviously more test = better bodycomp/nutrient shuttling etc. It would be a lie to say I don't choose to have "optimised" levels for more anabolic benefits, however the mental aspect for me is far more important and is the primary reason why I went on TRT. I feel much smarter, clearer, feel great all the time with a positive outlook on life, have a strong sex drive... Disregarding testosterone and muscle, those reasons alone are my main reasons for going on TRT as it is a lifelong commitment but the difference it has made to my life is night and day.

Also, in regards to your memory, IIRC the effects of Testosterone on cognition are not instant, rather it is a gradual effect. I certainly have noticed the longer I have been on the better my cognition feels and I don't particularly look for this effect so it is not placebo.

 

[halfape211]

What's not to answer here, we're all here to help each other

Most doctors will not want you to exceed the top of the range, however some will be alright with having levels a little over and where my levels (1400-1600) is where the complete cut off should be IMO, any higher and it's turning into more of a cycle/cruise/call it what you will... Higher test generally means more sides (more e2, more DHT, higher BP, quicker increase in RBC count etc etc). Generally, optimised would be getting more benefits from a bit more test without running into sides. However, in saying that, I have every intention of dropping those levels down as I age to somewhere more appropriate for longevity - 1000ng/dl at say when I'm 40 or 50 is pretty damn good.

Obviously, the extra benefits of sitting where I am is the increased libido, aggression in the gym, extra energy and sense of well-being (which many say you adjust to the well-being and it is true after sometime however I still feel pretty golden all the time, bear in mind I should look at adding hCG in soon which will contribute) and obviously more test = better bodycomp/nutrient shuttling etc. It would be a lie to say I don't choose to have "optimised" levels for more anabolic benefits, however the mental aspect for me is far more important and is the primary reason why I went on TRT. I feel much smarter, clearer, feel great all the time with a positive outlook on life, have a strong sex drive... Disregarding testosterone and muscle, those reasons alone are my main reasons for going on TRT as it is a lifelong commitment but the difference it has made to my life is night and day.

Also, in regards to your memory, IIRC the effects of Testosterone on cognition are not instant, rather it is a gradual effect. I certainly have noticed the longer I have been on the better my cognition feels and I don't particularly look for this effect so it is not placebo.

Wow! That's one of the most informative replies I've ever had on this forum. You answered a lot of questions I never asked, but wanted to know. Thanks

 

[Mprtz]

What's not to answer here, we're all here to help each other

Most doctors will not want you to exceed the top of the range, however some will be alright with having levels a little over and where my levels (1400-1600) is where the complete cut off should be IMO, any higher and it's turning into more of a cycle/cruise/call it what you will... Higher test generally means more sides (more e2, more DHT, higher BP, quicker increase in RBC count etc etc). Generally, optimised would be getting more benefits from a bit more test without running into sides. However, in saying that, I have every intention of dropping those levels down as I age to somewhere more appropriate for longevity - 1000ng/dl at say when I'm 40 or 50 is pretty damn good....

Great post - I totally agree with you. I'm also pushing it a bit with regard to levels, but I'm also watching my health very closely. I assume you're quite a bit younger, but I think you'll find that at 40 or 50 the drive (and temptation) to feel and look good can be just as strong (I'm 50).

 

[Alpin]

Get a sleep study done as well. Theres no indication that going over 1000 ng is going to help with either of your concerns. I had very bad sleep apnea and was on hefty TRT levels of T and it did not help the brain fog and fatigue.

 

[halfape211]

Get a sleep study done as well. Theres no indication that going over 1000 ng is going to help with either of your concerns. I had very bad sleep apnea and was on hefty TRT levels of T and it did not help the brain fog and fatigue.

Luckily, the brain fog went away as soon as I started TRT, with compounded creams. I'm also on progesterone which makes me sleep through most of the night. Without it I wake up every three hours. My wife has sleep apnea and fatigue. I never had that.

But I do have a brain that is only half working. I still have times where I can't recall the word I needed to use in a conversation. I forget peoples names, things I need to do, appointments. Sometimes I forget where I am driving to! I'm still grumpy and impatient. I get a few things accomplished, but not much. I'm not a happy camper like I used to be. There has been good progress, but I need to see a lot more before I'm "better". That's why I may need higher TT numbers.

Luckily I was once a happy, very successful, very smart, driven individual and I retired comfortably at age 50. So today I am the opposite, except I'm still comfortably retired. There's probably something out there that would make the higher doses work better for you. I hope you find out what to do.

 

[halfape211]

Another respectable lab in canada has TT range of 7.6-31.4 nmol/l. They actually lowered it from 38 nmol/l that was their max range 6 years back.

Can you recall the name of that lab?? It would be a big help.

 

[Alpin]

Can you recall the name of that lab?? It would be a big help.

PM me

 

[halfape211]

PM me

PM sent. I'm not sure I'm authorized yet, so I hope it went thru

 

[Alpin]

Your initial question was not really addressed....imo
You inquired about what is an "optimized" TRT level in Canada. The word "optimal" might need to be carefully replaced with "normal" when dealing with any doctor for that matter be it in Canada or elsewhere.
"Optimal" (l would say) is 800-1200 ng/dl.
Doesnt really matter though cause any GP would be glad to keep you at 500-600 ng/dl and send you on your way.

 

[halfape211]

Your initial question was not really addressed....imo
You inquired about what is an "optimized" TRT level in Canada. The word "optimal" might need to be carefully replaced with "normal" when dealing with any doctor for that matter be it in Canada or elsewhere.
"Optimal" (l would say) is 800-1200 ng/dl.
Doesnt really matter though cause any GP would be glad to keep you at 500-600 ng/dl and send you on your way.

From what I can find I agree that optimal is 800-1200. I had wondered if there was a standardized Optimal number but it appears from this forum and other sources, that Doctors can choose their own Optimal numbers.

We know that disease is more likely with low T, so here are studies with TT numbers people may want to stay above:
under 250 ng/dl - 1.75 increase risk of prostate cancer - Morgentaler 2006
under 288 - depression -Zitzmann 2006
under 432 - decrease in sex drive -Zitzmann 2006
under 600 - Alkzheimers Disease evidence in brain - Ding EL 2006
under 700 - Carotid Artery thickening - 2006; Elevated Blood Pressure - 1998 & 2006; Muscle atrophy - 1006 & 2001; Increased body fat - 2007; Decreased cognitive function - 2004; Increased overall cardio and Cancer deaths - 2007

800-1200 - optimal health- minimal to no disease - Hertoughe 2013

With this kind of info out there why do doctors want people to be less than the 800-1200 range?? Unfortunately, the answer in some cases is to negate legal action. No surprise - The legal system is ruining your health care.

However these studies should searched out and be shown to doctors to try to get proper treatment. Some docs are willing to change their minds.

 

[Alpin]

Doctors dont believe in that chart you have there. 700 ng/dl would br considered a fantastic T level. But for many guys on here it wont do F all. Apart from muscle atrophy with levels lower than 700.
There are guys who can get any one of those health problems and be at 700ng.

 

[halfape211]

Doctors dont believe in that chart you have there. 700 ng/dl would br considered a fantastic T level. But for many guys on here it wont do F all. Apart from muscle atrophy with levels lower than 700.
There are guys who can get any one of those health problems and be at 700ng.

Very interesting. I'm not being smart when I ask this. These guys with no results at 700; do you know if they get results with higher T numbers? Do some guys get no results even with really high T numbers?

I ask anyone that knows of guys in these situations, to jump in here. I'm a little afraid I'm going to be one of these guys and any info I can get would be very helpful.

 

[Alpin]

Half...

I just gave my opinion on what an average MD's response would be if they were presented with your chart of T levels.
I totally believe your chart. But it would fall on deaf ears to the wrong MD which unfortunately there are tons in Canada.

 

[halfape211]

Half...

I just gave my opinion on what an average MD's response would be if they were presented with your chart of T levels.
I totally believe your chart. But it would fall on deaf ears to the wrong MD which unfortunately there are tons in Canada.

And I agree 100% with you. Doctors are human and there are lot of humans that are idiots. Unfortunately some doctors that also idiots, think they know it all.


Being a curious person and one who tends to worry, I'm asking if anyone in this forum with low T problems are unable to get better, even with big T numbers like 1200 or 1600. Cause if some feel nothing at 700, do some also feel nothing at 1200 or 1600. Just looking for something to worry about. lol