100mg/5 days vs. 200mg/10 days....

We know its going to vary from person to person. Lemme get my blood work in a few weeks and then we can see how my results match up against yours/methos.
 
Hey guys. Just got my bloodwork back taken about 12 hours prior to trough on the 20th day since I started the E5D 100mg dosing schedule.

Here are my results:

View attachment 557100
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I was getting worried that my DHT was high because I noticed single strands of hair coming out here and there. I must have just been concious of it and minf flking myself. I have my mothers hair and dominant traits who has a full head of hair and my grandmother died at 89 with a full head of hair also. My father lost his hair in his early 20's. I am 31.

From what I can see all levels look pretty good. The blood was drawn the day after leg day which is why the ast is very high.

How does this look to you guys? Stay with this dosing scheme for the long term?

Thanks guys.
 
thats why your dht is low, there is no reason anyone should take T without HCG, it just doesn't make sense. Your progesterone is probably low too.

Suppression is something men need to take seriously, its gonna take its toll on you in the long run.

A lot of guys are always trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to TRT, there is no reason to do that when there are proven methods that work.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
Testosterone replacement therapy results in decreased serum gonadotropins and intratesticular testosterone, and impairs spermatogenesis, leading to azoospermia in 40% of patients. However, intratesticular testosterone can be maintained during testosterone replacement therapy with co-administration of low dose human chorionic gonadotropin, which may support continued spermatogenesis in patients on testosterone replacement therapy.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
We retrospectively reviewed the records of hypogonadal men treated with testosterone replacement therapy and concomitant low dose human chorionic gonadotropin. Testosterone replacement consisted of daily topical gel or weekly intramuscular injection with intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin (500 IU) every other day. Serum and free testosterone, estradiol, semen parameters and pregnancy rates were evaluated before and during therapy.
RESULTS:
A total of 26 men with a mean age of 35.9 years were included in the study. Mean followup was 6.2 months. Of the men 19 were treated with injectable testosterone and 7 were treated with transdermal gel. Mean serum hormone levels before vs during treatment were testosterone 207.2 vs 1,055.5 ng/dl (p <0.0001), free testosterone 8.1 vs 20.4 pg/ml (p = 0.02) and estradiol 2.2 vs 3.7 pg/ml (p = 0.11). Pretreatment semen parameters were volume 2.9 ml, density 35.2 million per ml, motility 49.0% and forward progression 2.3. No differences in semen parameters were observed during greater than 1 year of followup. No impact on semen parameters was observed as a function of testosterone formulation. No patient became azoospermic during concomitant testosterone replacement and human chorionic gonadotropin therapy. Nine of 26 men contributed to pregnancy with the partner during followup.
CONCLUSIONS:
Low dose human chorionic gonadotropin appears to maintain semen parameters in hypogonadal men on testosterone replacement therapy. Concurrent testosterone replacement and human chorionic gonadotropin use may preserve fertility in hypogonadal males who desire fertility preservation while on testosterone replacement therapy.
Copyright © 2013 American Urological Association Education and Research, Inc. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
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THE-DET-OAK said:
thats why your dht is low, there is no reason anyone should take T without HCG, it just doesn't make sense. Your progesterone is probably low too.

Suppression is something men need to take seriously, its gonna take its toll on you in the long run.

A lot of guys are always trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to TRT, there is no reason to do that when there are proven methods that work.
Click to expand...


Hey thanks for the input and response. I hear ya man but I'm on trt prescribed from my Endochrinologist. So if anyones re-inventing the wheel he/the medical community is. He dosed me at 175mg E10D, I just modified it myself to do around 100mg E5D. I asked the Endo multiple times about HCG and he said its not something he wants me to take. I Fully understand that medical doctors are extremely conservative and only do whats in the safest and best interest of the doctor as to reduce the possibility of a liability lawsuit but he understands that I am young and would like to have children. TBH my big concern right now is preventing hair loss. Its a fear of mine. I will take your advice into consideration.
 
THE-DET-OAK said:
thats why your dht is low, there is no reason anyone should take T without HCG, it just doesn't make sense. Your progesterone is probably low too.

Suppression is something men need to take seriously, its gonna take its toll on you in the long run.

A lot of guys are always trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to TRT, there is no reason to do that when there are proven methods that work.
Click to expand...


Hey thanks for the input and response. I hear ya man but I'm on trt prescribed from my Endochrinologist. So if anyones re-inventing the wheel he/the medical community is. He dosed me at 175mg E10D, I just modified it myself to do around 100mg E5D. I asked the Endo multiple times about HCG and he said its not something he wants me to take. I Fully understand that medical doctors are extremely conservative and only do whats in the safest and best interest of the doctor as to reduce the possibility of a liability lawsuit but he understands that I am young and would like to have children. TBH my big concern right now is preventing hair loss. Its a fear of mine. I will take your advice into consideration.


However after consulting with a very close friend of mine/my workout buddy, who is extremely knowledgeable about gear and trt states that Long term hcg will desensitize the testers and cause infertility that cannot be fixed. You use hcg short term to fix infertility and by using it now you are fucking yourself. Also increases e2 a lot and it can't be controlled by an ai.
 
LongBeach_Patriot said:
However after consulting with a very close friend of mine/my workout buddy, who is extremely knowledgeable about gear and trt states that Long term hcg will desensitize the testers and cause infertility that cannot be fixed. You use hcg short term to fix infertility and by using it now you are fucking yourself. Also increases e2 a lot and it can't be controlled by an ai.
Click to expand...

your friend is clueless too. I don't have time for this, you can't teach people that don't want to learn. I clearly posted a study done last year that goes against everything your clueless friend is saying, but go ahead listen to him cause he knows a lot about "gear" lol

It's not like I don't do this every single day with hundreds of guys. If i had time i would post over 1,000 blood tests right now of men all across the country that shows just how clueless your "endo" and friend are.

go ahead, reinvent the wheel.

Do your endo and friend a favor and have them read this page, maybe they, unlike you will be willing to learn a thing or 2

HCG 8211; HUMAN CHORIONIC GONADOTRPIN
If youre on testosterone therapy you don't need HCG right? IMT and our clients would disagree. HCG is a staple in our protocol and helps to avoid the suppression or reduction in the HPTA process, and the hormones that are produced by that process. If I were to tell you lets take the alternator out of your car and we will just keep the engine on the whole time dont worry about it, would that worry you? It should because its not likely that will be good for your car long term.

WHAT IS SUPPRESSION AND WHY DOES IT MATTER TO ME?
First we need to go over a quick rundown of how the HPTA (hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular-axis) works. Your pituitary is controlled by a response mechanism called the negative feedback loop. This simply means hormones talk to each other and tell this axis to speed up or slow down depending on the current levels in the blood stream. If a certain hormone level is high, it will signal to slow down the production of this hormone or terminate it completely. So when you inject or apply testosterone from outside the body, this negative feedback loop shuts off your natural testosterone. This is why it is called testosterone replacement because it completely replaces your testosterone. This is why its important that only men that have a testosterone deficiency take testosterone.

IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO STOP THIS?
The HPTA works by signaling the pituitary to send out LH (luteinizing hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) to the testicles. LH goes to the Leydig cells in the testicles and tells them to produce testosterone. FSH goes to the Sertoli cells and tells them to produce sperm. So when you take testosterone from outside the body these 2 signals slow down or shut off completely. HCG can offset this suppression by mimicking the LH signal, making the testicles think they should continue to make testosterone, and subsequently the other core sex hormones that testosterone gets converted into like estradiol, DHT and progesterone.

WHAT ARE THE NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS OF SUPPRESSION?
DECREASED FERTILITY
When you take exogenous testosterone this can decrease fertility. When shutting down the testicles your are not only shutting down testosterone production but also spermatogenesis. Taking HCG with your testosterone will keep the testicles working and increases your chances of maintaining fertility a ton. Many of our clients conceive while on one of our programs. In the following study, HCG maintained sperm levels in all participants:

Conclusion: Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin appears to maintain semen parameters in hypogonadal men on testosterone replacement therapy. Concurrent testosterone replacement and human chorionic gonadotropin use may preserve fertility in hypogonadal males who desire fertility preservation while on testosterone replacement therapy. Link

BALL SHRINKAGE
Yup I said it, your testicles are going to shrink if you take testosterone without HCG. The testicles become inactive or desensitized because they are not receiving LH or FSH and this causes the cells to shrink. Taking HCG with your testosterone will mitigate this and keep them partially functioning and keep their size the whole time.

EJACULATE VOLUME
After long periods of testosterone administration many men report a reduced ejaculate volume. This can make things less sensitive and take the pleasure out of the entire process. HCG will sensitize the leydig cells and improve your volume and sensitivity in that region when you do ejaculate.

RELATED HORMONE IMBALANCES
HCG has other duties besides telling the testicles to make testosterone; it even stimulates the pituitary in this complex loop. One enzyme in particular is the p-450 side chain enzyme. This enzyme is responsible for converting your cholesterol into pregnenolone and then into other core hormones like DHEA, TSH and Cortisol. If this stimulation does not happen it can make these important hormones deficient and cause other problems besides your T levels.

DECREASED SEX DRIVE
Some men optimize T levels and their sex drive stays unchanged. This could be due to the lack of progesterone production or adrenal insufficiency. HCG could fix this problem and has in many men. Reports of men on TRT touting HCG is the best hormone for men since testosterone are all over the Internet. This is due to HCGs ability to stimulate other hormones besides testosterone such as progesterone, DHT, Estradiol and adrenal hormones.

HCG IS DISPENSED AS A POWDER
Contained in vials of 3,500 IUs, 5, 000 IUs or 10, 000 IUs (depending on the compounding pharmacy these amounts may vary). These are usually accompanied by another vial of bacteriostatic water to reconstitute the powder into a liquid solution. Bacteriostatic water (water with a preservative that is provided with the prescription) is mixed in with the powder to reconstitute, or dissolve, it before injection. This type of water can preserve the solution for up to 10 weeks when refrigerated. Some patients do not use the 1 mL water vials that come with the commercially (non compounded) available product and instead get their doctors to prescribe 30 cc bottles of bacteriostatic water so that they can dilute the HCG down to a more workable concentration that is more practical for men using lower doses of HCG weekly.

HCG is injected under the skin or intramuscularly (there is still debate on which method is best). The number of IUs per injection will depend on how much bacteriostatic water you add to the dry powder vial. If you add 1 mL to a 5,000 IU powder vial, then you will have 5,000 IUs per mL, so 0.1 mL would be 500 IUs. If you add 2 mL to the 5,000 IU dry powder vial, then you will have 2,500 IUs/mL; 0.1 ml (or cc) in an insulin syringe will equal 250 IUs. If you need to inject 500 IUs, then you inject 0.2 ccs of this mixture.

Ultra-fine needle insulin syringes are used to inject HCG under the skin making this very easy to take even for the needle-phobic
Compounded HCG is a lot cheaper than the commercially available pharmaceutical products. Also, it is sometimes difficult to find commercially available HCG in regular pharmacies.

CAN I USE HCG ALONE TO BOOST TESTOSTERONE?
Using HCG as sole testosterone replacement option does not bring the same subjective benefit on sexual function as pure testosterone delivery systems do, even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more old-fashioned transdermal, or injected options, testosterone with the correct doses of HCG stabilizes blood levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. But in excess, HCG can cause acne, water retention, moodiness, and gynecomastia (breast enlargement in men).

Dont let the fate of your HPTA stand in the hands of someone who does not understand suppression and its consequences, call IMT today and get on a program that will address all the concerns of men on TRT.
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OMG i just realized you said the words desensitization and HCG, this is a myth I debunked years ago. Time for your friends to read up, they are quoting info from studies on rat balls bro, I think this convo is a little out of their league.

I mean seriously, your first post is "my doc gave me 200mg every 14 days", meanwhile 15 people in this thread has basically said your doc is clueless

As I posted elsewhere, there is no report anywhere of hCG administration as a cause of primary hypogonadism. If you know of such a case, it would be the first in the entire known body of scientific literature. In other words, "put up or shut up." This is a continuing myth by those who purport to have knowledge while actually possessing none. This is along the line of the hCG diet, 24-hour urine testing for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), and FSH monitoring for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT).
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http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/156877-hcg-desensitization-does-exist.html

Not to mention the study i posted earlier shows fertility maintenance after a year on TRT. So basically, in a nutshell, every single thing your friends and doc are telling you are 100% inaccurate. Its not uncommon though, I see it all the time.
 
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Not to mention your doc list's adrenal insufficiency and male infertility as his expertise, I am surprised he doesn't understand the basic relation of adrenal hormones and HPTA suppression, and how important HCG is to not only maintaining fertility but just keeping a primary function of your body going. Suppression is no joke, and anyone who has been on or treated TRT for years understands this.

Medical Expertise
Lipid Disorders, Osteoporosis/Metabollic Bone Disease, Cushing's Syndrome, Thyroid Disease, Calcium Disorders, Growth Disorders, Adrenal Disorders, Hirsutism (Hair Growth), Calcium Metabolism, Metabolic Syndrome, Diabetes, Parathyroid Disorders, Obesity, Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome, Male Infertility, Metabolic Bone Disease
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I guess i got a little off track and don't want to be mean, but it kind of irritates me when I try to help someone and they simply say "pffft my doc is expert" when its very clear he is not.
 
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I wasnt "pffting" you (lol), just pretty new to all this and regardless of many posts or how much you know about trt and gear, I have no clue who the hell you are. I would trust my doctor and good friend over a stranger, nothing personal at all. And I appreciate your input and the time you put in. I am on trt forever, not sure if you know this. I'm 31 years old. HCG taken for my entire life safe? That I'm not sure about. BTW, far from everyone said negative things about my Endo, I only saw you speak badly about him. I will continue to research and make a decision what to do.

Later
 
LongBeach_Patriot said:
I wasnt "pffting" you (lol), just pretty new to all this and regardless of many posts or how much you know about trt and gear, I have no clue who the hell you are. I would trust my doctor and good friend over a stranger, nothing personal at all. And I appreciate your input and the time you put in. I am on trt forever, not sure if you know this. I'm 31 years old. HCG taken for my entire life safe? That I'm not sure about. BTW, far from everyone said negative things about my Endo, I only saw you speak badly about him. I will continue to research and make a decision what to do.

Later
Click to expand...

Long: even you identfied that your endo on put you on a bad TRT protocol to start. That isn't a good start to things for building confidence.

It is a common TRT protocol to use HCG, especially when the person still wants to have kids. Many guys come off HCG for short periods of time periodically. You really should do your own research on HCG use for TRT. Learn how to use PubMed. DetOak was kind enough to give you one study already. Read it.

The sad truth is that most of us here on TRT have learned that not all doctors out there are up to date in the best TRT protocols. We have a great community here where we can learn from each other. The best advice I can give you is to strive to understand TRT better than your doctor does. Trust me in that it won't be that hard to accomplish. You need to be your best advocate for your health and medical care. Good docs are the ones who will listen when you present them with evidence and new information. You too need to learn how to listen and learn. Just putting blind faith in your doctor's ability to treat you optimally for TRT is a dangerous proposition. Just read all the posts in this forum to see how many doctors have not given their patients the best care possible.

DetOak was kind enough to offer you his help. I cannot even begin to tell you how much I have learned about TRT from him. He helped me through some difficult times when I started TRT. One of the biggest reasons for me hanging around here is the desire I feel to "pay it forward".
 
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Megatron28 said:
Long: even you identfied that your endo on put you on a bad TRT protocol to start. That isn't a good start to things for building confidence.

It is a common TRT protocol to use HCG, especially when the person still wants to have kids. Many guys come off HCG for short periods of time periodically. You really should do your own research on HCG use for TRT. Learn how to use PubMed. DetOak was kind enough to give you one study already. Read it.

The sad truth is that most of us here on TRT have learned that not all doctors out there are up to date in the best TRT protocols. We have a great community here where we can learn from each other. The best advice I can give you is to strive to understand TRT better than your doctor does. Trust me in that it won't be that hard to accomplish. You need to be your best advocate for your health and medical care. Good docs are the ones who will listen when you present them with evidence and new information. You too need to learn how to listen and learn. Just putting blind faith in your doctor's ability to treat you optimally for TRT is a dangerous proposition. Just read all the posts in this forum to see how many doctors have not given their patients the best care possible.

DetOak was kind enough to offer you his help. I cannot even begin to tell you how much I have learned about TRT from him. He helped me through some difficult times when I started TRT. One of the biggest reasons for me hanging around here is the desire I feel to "pay it forward".
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, I will do my own research and consider using hcg. Was thinking about maybe taking it on and off cyclically.
 
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