20 Years Old, First Cycle.

[lgnorant]

Hey, new to the forums, posting here to get the vet's opinions on my first cycle, having been researching since my second year of training, ( have been training since i was 16, 20 years old now), added a considerable amount of LBM on my frame, 10-11kg, in addition to having lost 50kg of fat from my physique from my heavy bulks (which hind-sight were not the best approaches although i did learn alot about my body), i am not new to the nutrition and diet game, much like everything i do with my diet it is very malicious in terms of structured and planned, i know that 20 years old is not the best age to be thinking of Anabolics although having said that with coming onto 4 years of training on my belt, having added 20-25lb of pure muscle on my frame and losing 50kg+ fat naturally shows my dedication and knowledge on nutrition and diet,

My stats;

20 Years Old,
5'11-6'0.
160lb~
7-9% Bodyfat.



Goal: My Goal is to add a significant amount of LBM this cycle (10-15lb+) , have a few questions regarding PCT and whether to add a 'kicker' such as dbol into the first 4 weeks as i will be using a longer ester testosterone (Enanthate).



Cycle;
Week 1-12 Test-E 500mg/week. 250mg Monday and Thursday.
Week 1-12 Armidex 0.5mg EOD
Week 3-13 Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 250IU x2 Week Monday and Thursday.


PCT;
Week 15 40mg Nolvadex Every Day 100mg Clomid Every Day
Week 16 40mg Nolvadex Every Day 100mg Clomid Every Day
Week 17 20mg Nolvadex Every Day 50mg Clomid Every Day
Week 18 20mg Nolvadex Every Day 50mg Clomid Every Day


I will have Armidex on hand incase of gyno, extreme water retention/bloat. (do not expect to get much with low sodium and if i choose not to take dbol)


My Questions include; should i include Dbol as a kicker first 4 weeks as naturally test-e is a longer ester therefore the first 4 weeks would be the test building in my system, having said this as ironic as it may sound in relation to my age, HEALTH is a #1 priority in this cycle therefore i am happy and content with a basic test-e cycle as i am sure that will benefit me a great deal, i am not wanting to put any undue stress on my liver, heart and other organs. Another question is, does my PCT look enough, i have been told to maybe add in Clomid ontop of nolvadex @ 50mg ED for weeks 15 and 16 and 25mg weeks 17 and 18, although researching on clomid some say it is a unnecessary drug in terms of sides in comparison with Nolvadex is fine.

Also in regards to Armidex, what would the dosage be if i do come in contact with early signs of gyno or puffy/sore nipples i was told .5mg EOD? until symptoms go away?

In terms of my diet; My TDEE @ 160lb is 2500, my calories will be consisting of 3000 at the baseline start of my 'bulk' at the macros of 250/350/75 (P,C,F) This will naturally raise higher and higher as my bulk continues, in terms of food sources im aware this post is already long enough so i will not post down a generic diet plan although i will be sitting away with sodium due to chances of bloating and to keep it down, fat will consist of poly and mono (also saturated for health reasons, just minimized)

My training regime is a 5 day split,
Monday; Chest/Abs/Traps
Tuesday; Quads/Hammies/Calves
Wednesday; Shoulders/Traps
Thursday; Back/Biceps
Friday; Chest/Triceps

Question regarding my split;
1. My main priority development wise would be definitely my chest, with the aid of anabolics training chest twice a week would seem do-able although close to shoulders (such as shown on wednesday and friday) would that be a issue due to recovery? being a natural i am not sure on the frequency in which such big bodyparts can be hit a week. I am aware traps are already very responsive to training and can be trained EOD.

For the people who read through that WHOLLEEE thing, thank you. I know i will get the "learn how to diet, natural potential!, i am aware and im sure this may not be the BEST idea at this age, although before i do commit and take that first injection, i will be having a blood test, EKG on my heart, urine test for my liver, everything needed to make sure i am in good health to undergo this.


In Addition; pictures to show that i am not new to training, i know many are bigger then me and rightfully so, you are all older then me but i do hold my own....picture of wheels first.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I think you should lift naturally for another 3 or 4 years. Your bodyfat is around 12 not 7-9. Being at 160, you can gain another 20 lbs naturally with a good diet. You gotta good physique, but you're no where near your genetic potential.

20 years old is too young to be juicing, you are more like to cause permanent damage at such a young age.
But it's your life.

1st cycle should be test only cycle.
Arimidex should be used throughout the entired cycle. (0.50mgs every other day) Not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in cycle is another way of asking for tits.

Add clomid to your PCT 100/50/50/50, Nolva 40/40/20/20

Get a pre -cycle blood work done, and look into HCG.

 

[lgnorant]

I think you should lift naturally for another 3 or 4 years. Your bodyfat is around 12 not 7-9. Being at 160, you can gain another 20 lbs naturally with a good diet. You gotta good physique, but you're no where near your genetic potential.

20 years old is too young to be juicing, you are more like to cause permanent damage at such a young age.
But it's your life.

1st cycle should be test only cycle.
Arimidex should be used throughout the entired cycle. (0.50mgs every other day) Not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in cycle is another way of asking for tits.

Add clomid to your PCT 100/50/50/50, Nolva 40/40/20/20

Get a pre -cycle blood work done, and look into HCG.

Thank you for the reply, I would maybe think clomid 100mg would be a little high or is that a standard?

Again, thanks for the honest reply and not just "gtfo go train natty"

Also, is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) needed or strongly recommended for PCT.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Thank you for the reply, I would maybe think clomid 100mg would be a little high or is that a standard?

Again, thanks for the honest reply and not just "gtfo go train natty"

Also, is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) needed or strongly recommended for PCT.

It's not too high, double dose for the 1st week of Nolva and Clomid is a good way to start post cycle therapy (pct). Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will keep your testes working on cycle. It should be used during the cycle, not for post cycle therapy (pct). If you want to make steroids as a part of your life, then you have to use it. But it is strongly recommended for the 1st cycle, it increases chances of recovery.

 

[lgnorant]

It's not too high, double dose for the 1st week of Nolva and Clomid is a good way to start post cycle therapy (pct). Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will keep your testes working on cycle. It should be used during the cycle, not for post cycle therapy (pct). If you want to make steroids as a part of your life, then you have to use it. But it is strongly recommended for the 1st cycle, it increases chances of recovery.

Will defintely look into it now, appreciate it.

Anymore replies are welcome.

 

[DreDay187]

I agree with Dex, at your age I cannot morally recommend a cycle to you in good conscience. The cons may very well outweigh the benefits. I will commend you though for taking Dex's advice in stride and not getting an attitude with the advice to stay natty for the moment .

You have a pretty good physique but your main issue as I set is a lack of lbm for your frame/height. You're closer to 10-12% BF but that's nothing to be ashamed of. My recommendation to you is to stay natty and bulk with a 10-20% caloric surplus. You have a pretty good foundation of nutrition basics which is a breath of fresh air. You have more than enough protein in your diet so if you'd like you could reduce it slightly and add in more dietary fats or keep it as is, you're well within the minimum range of fat intake. I must say for 20yrs old you have put up almost every piece of information needed to critique . If your TDEE is really 2500calories bulking at 3000 is a good place to start and re-evaluate your TDEE every 4-6wks, don't keep your diet static. Make sure your sources for macros are varied to meet micronutrient sufficiency and be sure to get in plenty of veggies, fruits, different sources of protein and fats. I would be interested in seeing a sample day's diet if you'd like to post it.

I'm going to leave the cycle advice to others, I sincerely hope you heed the advice of training natty for another couple years but diet wise you're in good standing. Just continue bulking and try hitting at least ~190ish lbs at your current body fat (obviously you'd have to bulk than cut) and you'll be very happy with your physique. Training wise I'm not a fan of splits but that's bc I train for strength and am a bit biased. If you'd like different views on training let me know and we can talk it over. Best of luck to you.

 

[lgnorant]

I agree with Dex, at your age I cannot morally recommend a cycle to you in good conscience. The cons may very well outweigh the benefits. I will commend you though for taking Dex's advice in stride and not getting an attitude with the advice to stay natty for the moment .

You have a pretty good physique but your main issue as I set is a lack of lbm for your frame/height. You're closer to 10-12% BF but that's nothing to be ashamed of. My recommendation to you is to stay natty and bulk with a 10-20% caloric surplus. You have a pretty good foundation of nutrition basics which is a breath of fresh air. You have more than enough protein in your diet so if you'd like you could reduce it slightly and add in more dietary fats or keep it as is, you're well within the minimum range of fat intake. I must say for 20yrs old you have put up almost every piece of information needed to critique . If your TDEE is really 2500calories bulking at 3000 is a good place to start and re-evaluate your TDEE every 4-6wks, don't keep your diet static. Make sure your sources for macros are varied to meet micronutrient sufficiency and be sure to get in plenty of veggies, fruits, different sources of protein and fats. I would be interested in seeing a sample day's diet if you'd like to post it.

I'm going to leave the cycle advice to others, I sincerely hope you heed the advice of training natty for another couple years but diet wise you're in good standing. Just continue bulking and try hitting at least ~190ish lbs at your current body fat (obviously you'd have to bulk than cut) and you'll be very happy with your physique. Training wise I'm not a fan of splits but that's bc I train for strength and am a bit biased. If you'd like different views on training let me know and we can talk it over. Best of luck to you.

Thanks Docd187123, im aware that i am a bit young to be dabbling with AAS's and i made this thread if not to benefit now from it but even in the future when i decide to take on Anabolics, i have not bought anything as of yet so no commitments have been made, As for posting my daily diets, it changes on day to day, my main sources of protein would be for chicken breast, eggs, steak, kangaroo meat, more chicken lol, rarely take any shakes i find solid foods to be more satisfying then liquid (especially when dieting). Carb sources i honestly do not worry about Glycemic index i just worry to hit my macros at the end of the day the only quality i do look out for in any macro nutrient is my Fats as i stick to poly,mono and unsaturated fats for health reasons, my other two macros protein and carbs i just worry about hitting my numbers by the end of the day. (as i do enjoy some splurge food, im only human XD)

You do seem knowledgeable in terms of AAS and training/dieting if you could help me on my questions about training on AAS/cycle i would appreciate it as i will eventually do my first cycle i would like to soak up as much information as of now.

Thanks again for the reply, truly.

 

[DreDay187]

Thanks Docd187123, im aware that i am a bit young to be dabbling with AAS's and i made this thread if not to benefit now from it but even in the future when i decide to take on Anabolics, i have not bought anything as of yet so no commitments have been made, As for posting my daily diets, it changes on day to day, my main sources of protein would be for chicken breast, eggs, steak, kangaroo meat, more chicken lol, rarely take any shakes i find solid foods to be more satisfying then liquid (especially when dieting). Carb sources i honestly do not worry about Glycemic index i just worry to hit my macros at the end of the day the only quality i do look out for in any macro nutrient is my Fats as i stick to poly,mono and unsaturated fats for health reasons, my other two macros protein and carbs i just worry about hitting my numbers by the end of the day. (as i do enjoy some splurge food, im only human XD)

You do seem knowledgeable in terms of AAS and training/dieting if you could help me on my questions about training on AAS/cycle i would appreciate it as i will eventually do my first cycle i would like to soak up as much information as of now.

Thanks again for the reply, truly.

Kudos! Glycemic index is not a useful index since fat and protein can alter the glycemic load of a meal and make even high GI carbs digest slowly. You have a pretty good variety of protein intake and fats look good but I would say don't remove all saturated fats from your diet. Saturated fats play an important role in the body and help with hormonal function/production. Most of your fats should be poly/mono unsaturated along with a decent amount of EFA's but that doesn't mean completely eliminate the saturated fats either. I find that including the foods you like, within moderation, to your daily diet helps the splurging aspect but if your diet allows you consistency than so be it. Just make sure to fit the splurges as best you can into your macros and daily energy intake.

I have no problems answering any of your questions but like I said, I cannot consciously give you cycle advice (what compounds to run, dosages, timing, etc). I do not want to be the reason you may end up with long-term health complications and to be honest, the policies of this board prohibit the advocation of AAS to ppl under 23. Anyway feel free to ask any questions diet and training related and I'll do my best to answer them as completely as possible.

 

[lgnorant]

Kudos! Glycemic index is not a useful index since fat and protein can alter the glycemic load of a meal and make even high GI carbs digest slowly. You have a pretty good variety of protein intake and fats look good but I would say don't remove all saturated fats from your diet. Saturated fats play an important role in the body and help with hormonal function/production. Most of your fats should be poly/mono unsaturated along with a decent amount of EFA's but that doesn't mean completely eliminate the saturated fats either. I find that including the foods you like, within moderation, to your daily diet helps the splurging aspect but if your diet allows you consistency than so be it. Just make sure to fit the splurges as best you can into your macros and daily energy intake.

I have no problems answering any of your questions but like I said, I cannot consciously give you cycle advice (what compounds to run, dosages, timing, etc). I do not want to be the reason you may end up with long-term health complications and to be honest, the policies of this board prohibit the advocation of AAS to ppl under 23. Anyway feel free to ask any questions diet and training related and I'll do my best to answer them as completely as possible.

I respect that, thanks for looking over the diet aspect, though and i will hit you up when i am in need of some diet advice, thanks.

Anymore replies welcome

 

[DreDay187]

I respect that, thanks for looking over the diet aspect, though and i will hit you up when i am in need of some diet advice, thanks.

Anymore replies welcome

You're more than welcome and I should thank you for not flipping out over my decision to hold off on the AAS advice like so many others do hahaha. Good luck and like I said, feel free to create a thread for diet and/or training when you feel you've plateaued. There are many many great ppl on here willing to help.

 

[DexterMorgan]

And bring us some Kangaroo meat to 'Merica. You Australians, I'm so Jelly.

 

[lgnorant]

And bring us some Kangaroo meat to 'Merica. You Australians, I'm so Jelly.

One of my lifesavers when it comes to dieting ^.^ virtually 0 fat and all protein, taste just like steak.

+ sorry to be a bother but when you stated armidex 0.5mg EOD, should that be started the very first day since i will not be using dbol as a kicker, enanthate will take a few weeks to kick in at the very least, therefore i find it a waste to be taking armidex EOD the first few weeks? or should i still be taking it.

I also thank you for bringing up Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) ive read up on it and have definitely decided to be running that throughout my cycle weeks. Although i have a few questions.
- Should i be taking it as the dosages stated in my O.P? (250IUs 2x a week, will most likely pin them the same days/time as i do with the test, Monday and Thursday.
- When is it recommended to stop taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in my Cycle
- A more noobie question, when to actually START? as the first question the slower ester will mean i wont shut down immediately therefore maybe i should start it weeks 2 or 3 till (?) (depending on your reply to second said question).

Sorry again about being such a bother but if i do go ahead with this cycle i want to know exactly what i am putting in my body/when and for what reasons, i like to be guided at the start and then be able to judge confidently for myself in the future, everyone starts off as a newbie

 

[DexterMorgan]

One of my lifesavers when it comes to dieting ^.^ virtually 0 fat and all protein, taste just like steak.

+ sorry to be a bother but when you stated armidex 0.5mg EOD, should that be started the very first day since i will not be using dbol as a kicker, enanthate will take a few weeks to kick in at the very least, therefore i find it a waste to be taking armidex EOD the first few weeks? or should i still be taking it.

I also thank you for bringing up HCG ive read up on it and have definitely decided to be running that throughout my cycle weeks. Although i have a few questions.
- Should i be taking it as the dosages stated in my O.P? (250IUs 2x a week, will most likely pin them the same days/time as i do with the test, Monday and Thursday.
- When is it recommended to stop taking HCG in my Cycle
- A more noobie question, when to actually START? as the first question the slower ester will mean i wont shut down immediately therefore maybe i should start it weeks 2 or 3 till (?) (depending on your reply to second said question).

Sorry again about being such a bother but if i do go ahead with this cycle i want to know exactly what i am putting in my body/when and for what reasons, i like to be guided at the start and then be able to judge confidently for myself in the future, everyone starts off as a newbie

Now that Doc said it, I now feel guilty giving you advice. Just wait till you turn 23 man.
You taking the chances of remaining on Testosterone Replacement Therapy for life. Married to the need at that age, your life won't be the same. We are pro steroids here, but we can't tell you that its okay to use them at that age because it's not. Risks are too high.

 

[lgnorant]

Now that Doc said it, I now feel guilty giving you advice. Just wait till you turn 23 man.
You taking the chances of remaining on Testosterone Replacement Therapy for life. Married to the need at that age, your life won't be the same. We are pro steroids here, but we can't tell you that its okay to use them at that age because it's not. Risks are too high.

Fair enough, thanks for the earlier help, like i said im not committed to cycling as i have not bought anything yet, but i will be taking on AAS's in the future therefore i would want to soak some knowledge now, all is good though.

 

[frank.tb]

Fair enough, thanks for the earlier help, like i said im not committed to cycling as i have not bought anything yet, but i will be taking on AAS's in the future therefore i would want to soak some knowledge now, all is good though.

Bro just stay natty...we are in the same boat...I'm the same age and hell yea I wanna do gear but it's not worth it right now...any bodybuilder I've talked to on a personal level I know locally has told me the later the better...
And yes you can grow a lot more naturally! Just EAT lots of food as everyone has already said.
I mean being my age and having this awesome natural sex drive and enthusiasm is awsum! And I've come to realize I don't want to risk ruining that right now.
Knw u wanted advice from the vets and like me you seem like you've really done your research but still my opinion is to stay on the site till we are of age and soak up everything you can
But thought u wldnt mind hearing the opinion of someone your age.
Keep up the good worknd good luck bro

 

[2GAINS]

Im sure youve heard this a lot but just stay natty until at least 24, whats the rush? Youve got your whole life ahead of you.

 

[lgnorant]

Edit: After Searching more and more about taking AAS at 20 and the possible side effects that are permanent such as testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for life which i was very aware of going into this, ill hold off AAS's till about 22-23 maybe longer depending, i'll continue researching though, thanks for the tips i got though