Another Doctor that thinks high E2 isn't bad!

SJC

I am banned!
I'm on month 3 of TRT. My doctor gave me a scrip to pin myself 100mg of test c that I do twice a week. I started in middle November and by Christmas I was 10ft tall and bullet proof. 6 weeks in I did blood work on my own and had test level of 1100 and E2 of 54. It was just a litle high but I did do bloods the day after pinning so I didn't sweat it.

I noticed by the end of January I started to feel tired, labido was all over the place, my mood was ok and workouts were still strong but come 9 pm I was a walking zombie. I knew my next bloods were coming up so I just rode it out and waited till last week(the morning of my pin and before my pin) to get bloods done by the doctor. Went to see him today and go over everything and my trough test was 577 free test was 13.9 up from 241 and 7.6 and E2 was 182 which according to the scale the lab used was almost 70 points high. Doc say thats not why I'm tired and its just one of those things since I sleep fine. WTF, I asked if he would prescibe me something for my piece of mind and he wouldn't. I'll see you in 6 months was what I got. I left and called a friend about getting some Aromison(sp)
 
High E2 inflames the prostate, causes high BP, Blood clots, e.t.c....
a lot of endos don't deal with E2 in men. They have no idea it needs control or that TRT raises it.
Endos don't really want to get involved in TRT and when they do a lot don't know how to execute a proper TRT protocol.
 
Time to find a new doctor.

Seconded.

Time to find a doctor that's not a glorified diabetes specialist.


E2 (as pointed out by Apollon) can do much, MUCH more than just mess with your energy levels and libido. Can't comment on self-treatment in this forum, but I do think it's in your best interest to find a doctor that at least takes his Hippocratic Oath seriously.

My .02c :)
 
Thats a hell of a link.

I've go threw many doctors the truth is if your not using some one like the doc at increasemyT.com you will have to seek your estrogen control on your own. I have had doctors that would prescribe Test with HCG but no AI.

Tons of docs out there like you mention Dread.....
They won't touch the AI. Many won't even give you the clomid cause it is simply "off label". Had 3 docs tell me clomid would help me but they would not write it....nice eh?
They want to protect themselves at all costs.

Yes it is a good link!!!
it deserves Green reps!!!!!
lol
 
pg/ml

Whats the difference?

182pmol/L is a normal level whereas 182pg/mL is too high. It's important to use units with the lab values. I don't want to sound redundant but just double check to make sure.

Good Luck!
 
182pmol/L is a normal level whereas 182pg/mL is too high. It's important to use units with the lab values. I don't want to sound redundant but just double check to make sure.

Good Luck!

No. Anything over 160 pmol/l on a regular Estradiol panel is over range and considered "HI"
160 pmol/l =43.5 pg/ml roughly....
 
I agree time to shop around. I may just call IMT. Thanks for the input. Yes it is deffinately pg/ml
 
No. Anything over 160 pmol/l on a regular Estradiol panel is over range and considered "HI"
160 pmol/l =43.5 pg/ml roughly....

It truly depends on the type of assay that was performed. Some use a reference range of 7.6-42.6pg/mL while others a range of 3-70pg/mL. Also, different type of assays report false highs for estradiol. A study - cannot find link but will update when I find it - found that assays using liquid immunoassays and others report false highs. Their recommendation was to use standard mass spectrometry assays for their accuracy. The problem is that most doctors won't use LC/MS assays as they are more expensive and require more time to evaluate. Roche ECLIA assays are quicker and cheaper.

My opinion on "optimal" levels of E2 are changing as of late. I'm not sure where this notion that 20 - 30pg/mL is the "sweet spot" derived from but more studies are showing higher E2 is better than lower E2. Take this study for example:

Elevated Serum Estradiol Is Associated with Higher Libido in Men on Testosterone Supplementation Therapy - European Urology

Testosterone has always been considered to be a male hormone, whereas oestrogen has typically been discussed in the context of being a female hormone. Conventionally, the goal of testosterone supplementation therapy (TST) in men was to raise serum testosterone levels and lower oestrogen levels.

A recent study by Finkelstein et al. highlighted an important role for oestrogen in regulation of sexual function in men on TST. In that study, dramatic declines in libido were observed in conjunction with decreased levels of serum oestrogen.

Although oestrogen is associated with male sexual behaviour, the distinct roles of testosterone and oestrogen on sexual function in men on TST are controversial. We thus sought to elucidate the associations between serum testosterone, estradiol, and libido in men undergoing TST for symptomatic hypogonadism (total testosterone <300 ng/dl and three or more symptoms on the Androgen Decline in Aging Male [ADAM] questionnaire).

Men on TST (injections or gels; n = 423) presenting to a large-volume, tertiary referral andrology clinic were asked to rate the quality of their libido using 5-point Likert scales (1 = terrible, 5 = excellent) as part of the validated, quantitative ADAM questionnaire.

Men were categorised as having low (0.5***8211;5.0 ng/dl) or high (>5.0 ng/dl) estradiol and low (<300 ng/dl) or high (>300 ng/dl) testosterone. Serum levels of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinising hormone (LH), serum testosterone, and sex hormone- binding globulin (SHBG) were collected on the same day that men completed their ADAM questionnaires. We subsequently performed univariate (t test, chi-square) and multivariate analyses (ordinal logistic regression) to evaluate factors that predicted libido.

Men with serum testosterone levels >300 ng/dl reported greater libido than men whose levels were <300 ng/dl (3.46 vs 2.92; p < 0.01).
Men with serum estradiol levels >5 ng/dl reported greater libido than men with estradiol levels <5 ng/dl (3.70 vs 3.23; p < 0.01).


In total, 60.4% of men with a serum testosterone level >300 ng/dl and estradiol level >5 ng/dl reported very good or excellent levels of libido (scored as 4 or 5) compared with 31.3% of men with testosterone levels <300 ng/dl and estradiol levels <5 ng/dl ( p < 0.01).

Univariate analysis noted associations between libido and age, and FSH, LH (analysed as continuous variables), estradiol, and testosterone levels (analysed as categorical variables, and which remained significant even when analysed as continuous variables) (Table 1). Interestingly, on multivariate analysis, only estradiol at serum levels >5 ng/dl (2.13; p = 0.04) was associated with greater libido (Table 2).

While this study highlights the importance of oestrogen in men on TST, the limitations include a lack of control group and no score comparisons before and after commencement of TST. Furthermore, a larger sample size may have unmasked a confounding relationship between testosterone and libido.

In summary, we have found that elevated serum levels of estradiol are associated with increased libido in men on TST. We recommend judicious use of aromatase inhibitors for indications such as gynaecomastia. Indiscriminate prescription for the sole purpose of reducing serum oestrogen may be met with poor libido-decreasing satisfaction and quality of life.

Carefully designed placebo-controlled trials to assess the risks and benefits of both testosterone and oestrogen are required.
 
It truly depends on the type of assay that was performed. Some use a reference range of 7.6-42.6pg/mL while others a range of 3-70pg/mL. Also, different type of assays report false highs for estradiol. A study - cannot find link but will update when I find it - found that assays using liquid immunoassays and others report false highs. Their recommendation was to use standard mass spectrometry assays for their accuracy. The problem is that most doctors won't use LC/MS assays as they are more expensive and require more time to evaluate. Roche ECLIA assays are quicker and cheaper.

My opinion on "optimal" levels of E2 are changing as of late. I'm not sure where this notion that 20 - 30pg/mL is the "sweet spot" derived from but more studies are showing higher E2 is better than lower E2. Take this study for example:

Elevated Serum Estradiol Is Associated with Higher Libido in Men on Testosterone Supplementation Therapy - European Urology

Testosterone has always been considered to be a male hormone, whereas oestrogen has typically been discussed in the context of being a female hormone. Conventionally, the goal of testosterone supplementation therapy (TST) in men was to raise serum testosterone levels and lower oestrogen levels.

A recent study by Finkelstein et al. highlighted an important role for oestrogen in regulation of sexual function in men on TST. In that study, dramatic declines in libido were observed in conjunction with decreased levels of serum oestrogen.

Although oestrogen is associated with male sexual behaviour, the distinct roles of testosterone and oestrogen on sexual function in men on TST are controversial. We thus sought to elucidate the associations between serum testosterone, estradiol, and libido in men undergoing TST for symptomatic hypogonadism (total testosterone <300 ng/dl and three or more symptoms on the Androgen Decline in Aging Male [ADAM] questionnaire).

Men on TST (injections or gels; n = 423) presenting to a large-volume, tertiary referral andrology clinic were asked to rate the quality of their libido using 5-point Likert scales (1 = terrible, 5 = excellent) as part of the validated, quantitative ADAM questionnaire.

Men were categorised as having low (0.5***8211;5.0 ng/dl) or high (>5.0 ng/dl) estradiol and low (<300 ng/dl) or high (>300 ng/dl) testosterone. Serum levels of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinising hormone (LH), serum testosterone, and sex hormone- binding globulin (SHBG) were collected on the same day that men completed their ADAM questionnaires. We subsequently performed univariate (t test, chi-square) and multivariate analyses (ordinal logistic regression) to evaluate factors that predicted libido.

Men with serum testosterone levels >300 ng/dl reported greater libido than men whose levels were <300 ng/dl (3.46 vs 2.92; p < 0.01).
Men with serum estradiol levels >5 ng/dl reported greater libido than men with estradiol levels <5 ng/dl (3.70 vs 3.23; p < 0.01).


In total, 60.4% of men with a serum testosterone level >300 ng/dl and estradiol level >5 ng/dl reported very good or excellent levels of libido (scored as 4 or 5) compared with 31.3% of men with testosterone levels <300 ng/dl and estradiol levels <5 ng/dl ( p < 0.01).

Univariate analysis noted associations between libido and age, and FSH, LH (analysed as continuous variables), estradiol, and testosterone levels (analysed as categorical variables, and which remained significant even when analysed as continuous variables) (Table 1). Interestingly, on multivariate analysis, only estradiol at serum levels >5 ng/dl (2.13; p = 0.04) was associated with greater libido (Table 2).

While this study highlights the importance of oestrogen in men on TST, the limitations include a lack of control group and no score comparisons before and after commencement of TST. Furthermore, a larger sample size may have unmasked a confounding relationship between testosterone and libido.

In summary, we have found that elevated serum levels of estradiol are associated with increased libido in men on TST. We recommend judicious use of aromatase inhibitors for indications such as gynaecomastia. Indiscriminate prescription for the sole purpose of reducing serum oestrogen may be met with poor libido-decreasing satisfaction and quality of life.

Carefully designed placebo-controlled trials to assess the risks and benefits of both testosterone and oestrogen are required.

Good study....
I agree with you on the b.s. with 20-30 pg/ml range being a sweet spot for Estradiol.
Translated and converted to Pmol/l the range is: 73-110 pmol/l as the "sweet spot" for Estradiol. Sweet spot for me is to keep a steady Estradiol of 30-42 pg/ml. But how though??
even taking a single dose of ADEX while on TRT drops it aggressively.
Below 95 pmol/l and I feel my joints dry and ache, lower than that and anxiety becomes vicious for me.

The difficulty here is how to properly gauge the management of estradiol. An AI while on TRT vs. Natty T is different in action. I notice the drop in estradiol quicker while on TRT with the use of an AI.
0.25 mg EOD doesn't even phase me when natty but if taken while on TRT at this dose and mind you I am running hefty doses of HCG....my E2 will crash within 3 hours of swallowing the 1/4 tab dose.
I've even cut the 1/4 tabs in half and tried EOD still was a bit too much....
 
B.t.w. last lab I had was 36 pg/ml for Estradiol(regular panel)....
felt good. This was my most recent lab. ADEX was taken the day before the lab though. I was dosing it E4D at the time.
 
Good study....
I agree with you on the b.s. with 20-30 pg/ml range being a sweet spot for Estradiol.
Translated and converted to Pmol/l the range is: 73-110 pmol/l as the "sweet spot" for Estradiol. Sweet spot for me is to keep a steady Estradiol of 30-42 pg/ml. But how though??
even taking a single dose of ADEX while on TRT drops it aggressively.
Below 95 pmol/l and I feel my joints dry and ache, lower than that and anxiety becomes vicious for me.

The difficulty here is how to properly gauge the management of estradiol. An AI while on TRT vs. Natty T is different in action. I notice the drop in estradiol quicker while on TRT with the use of an AI.
0.25 mg EOD doesn't even phase me when natty but if taken while on TRT at this dose and mind you I am running hefty doses of HCG....my E2 will crash within 3 hours of swallowing the 1/4 tab dose.
I've even cut the 1/4 tabs in half and tried EOD still was a bit too much....

This is why I'm so hard on some guys. I found out I had low testosterone about 4 years ago now and I've learned that my assumptions on what lab values are have always been wrong. Initially, when I started shots, I was thinking to myself, "This dose is too low for me. I don't feel anything. I probably suppressed my natural production and this dose ain't cutting it!" When I had my blood drawn, to my amazement, I was at 1055ng/dL total testosterone. I dropped the shots and currently on gels because my DHT was flagged low on shots. Again, I thought to myself, "This dose ain't cutting it! I don't feel a thing!" Sure enough, my recent lab value was 964ng/dL! (DHT is now in normal range on gels) With my E2 levels, I felt no difference when my levels were at 62pg/mL or at 6.9pg/mL. Weeks ago, I was taking 0.25mg of Arimidex EOD and I had a value of 14pg/mL. I lowered my dose to 0.25 E3D's and my recent lab report shows a E2 value of 7.7pg/mL!?! What gives!? Having said that, I don't make any assumptions on what my lab values are anymore until I have a lab report.

I may dabble with my Arimidex again but right now I'm on 3 pumps of Axiron with no AI and I'll retest to see where my values are at that point. I do want to make a point that when I hit 7.7pg/mL on my lower dose (0.25mg E3D instead of EOD) I had taken my dose the night before so I'm not sure if that affected my results. If I dabble with the AI again, I'm going to look into the method I read awhile ago where they turned the Arimidex into a liquid solution which enabled you to take very low doses daily. Daily doses would be ideal and very helpful in determining more accurate E2 levels without worrying about peaks and troughs when taking AI's days apart. I'd recommend looking into that in your case.
 
This is why I'm so hard on some guys. I found out I had low testosterone about 4 years ago now and I've learned that my assumptions on what lab values are have always been wrong. Initially, when I started shots, I was thinking to myself, "This dose is too low for me. I don't feel anything. I probably suppressed my natural production and this dose ain't cutting it!" When I had my blood drawn, to my amazement, I was at 1055ng/dL total testosterone. I dropped the shots and currently on gels because my DHT was flagged low on shots. Again, I thought to myself, "This dose ain't cutting it! I don't feel a thing!" Sure enough, my recent lab value was 964ng/dL! (DHT is now in normal range on gels) With my E2 levels, I felt no difference when my levels were at 62pg/mL or at 6.9pg/mL. Weeks ago, I was taking 0.25mg of Arimidex EOD and I had a value of 14pg/mL. I lowered my dose to 0.25 E3D's and my recent lab report shows a E2 value of 7.7pg/mL!?! What gives!? Having said that, I don't make any assumptions on what my lab values are anymore until I have a lab report.

I may dabble with my Arimidex again but right now I'm on 3 pumps of Axiron with no AI and I'll retest to see where my values are at that point. I do want to make a point that when I hit 7.7pg/mL on my lower dose (0.25mg E3D instead of EOD) I had taken my dose the night before so I'm not sure if that affected my results. If I dabble with the AI again, I'm going to look into the method I read awhile ago where they turned the Arimidex into a liquid solution which enabled you to take very low doses daily. Daily doses would be ideal and very helpful in determining more accurate E2 levels without worrying about peaks and troughs when taking AI's days apart. I'd recommend looking into that in your case.

I hear you and agree with you. But daily doses of ADEX are not needed...
it's reported half life is 48 hours but I have heard anecdotal evidence it is active up to 96 hours....
I got a new pill cutter and can cut the ADEX from 1/4 tabs in half which is great. Started using the 0.125 mg ADEX EOD and felt some anxiety....
if I lower E2 too much I can get vicious anxiety.
At your levels of 7 pg/ml I'd be in real bad shape!!!
You might be in a different boat now...cause you are applying daily Axiron which is giving you daily T levels....
You could crash the T using an AI if you are on injectable version.
 
JOWS 7

How many days from ADEX dose did you do your labs ?
That counts too. Try taking the meds at very consistent times and then do labs on very consistent days....

for e.g.. always do blood work on a Monday if you are dosing the stuff religiously the previous days...
 
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