aromatase inhibitors (Estrogen Control)

[Frustrated1]

Tell me more. I've read some good articles on this. My HDL is below normal, and LDL is at the max. So I'm looking for long term options. I also don't want to kill GH, as mine are already low. I don't really care what the androgenic effects are because we just dial in what we need. Since we are all in the same boat, lets talk about it.

There are 2 kinds Serms and AI.
Serms

1. Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) reducing LDL and total cholesterol. Estrogenic effects on mood, causing some slight depression or moddiness. It can also effect eyesight by causing it to seem blurry.
2. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), can reduce IGF-1 levels.
3. Toremifene Citrate (Fareston)
4. Raloxifene hydrochloride (Evista), reducing LDL and total cholesterol. Seems like this would be very popular, anybody try it?

AI's

1. Anastrozole (Arimidex), messes with lipids
2. Aromasin (Exemestane)
3. Letrozole (Femara)

What else is out there. Which are some good and bad choices?

 

[Schweddy]

Also, when do you need to consider AIs? Is there a typical level of injection where it becomes an issue (say over x ml of test per week)? Or do you wait until symptoms present (sore nips and moodiness)?

 

[conklcl]

I would also like to know this I asked about this in another post my Estrogens levels have doubled in the last two months but I still feel fine.

 

[saikijeen]

Just like to ask something on all these AIs Anastrozole (Arimidex) comes in 1mg in tablets so what should be the dose of it? and its damn expensive. could someone suggest the amount of Ais need to be taken ( in mgs per day)?

 

[Frustrated1]

Also, when do you need to consider AIs? Is there a typical level of injection where it becomes an issue (say over x ml of test per week)? Or do you wait until symptoms present (sore nips and moodiness)?

Only blood tests can tell. Keep estradiol (e2) sensitive in the 20's.

I would also like to know this I asked about this in another post my Estrogens levels have doubled in the last two months but I still feel fine.

If you feel fine then it's probably not much of a problem for you specifically. What's your number?

Just like to ask something on all these AIs Anastrozole (Arimidex) comes in 1mg in tablets so what should be the dose of it? and its damn expensive. could someone suggest the amount of Ais need to be taken ( in mgs per day)?

It all depends on the person. Usually taken at the same time as hcg. The tablet should be cut in half or quarters. Dosage is usually 1-3 mg per week if you are on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), much less if any at all if your not.

Come in guys anybody have experience with these?

 

[cashout]

First, I am a big believer in not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if that is at all possible while on HRT.

With that said, it requires a little differnt approach to HRT than what I've seen around here over the past few years. That may be a function of the people designing the protocols. Regardless, I know non-AI HRT can be tricky but it can be done and I fiddled around with it for a while when I was on HRT so I know it takes some doing.

I am very estrogen sensitive. So it was a big step for me to move off of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while I was on HRT.

So here is what I learned and why I suggest not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if you can avoid it.

First, Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use over long term, which HRT is, will skew lipid profiles. That is not good for us guys in the 40+ crowd. That increases our risk for cardiovascular issues.

Next, they seem to have an impact on connective tissue and joints. I have talked with many of you who have expressed issues with joints and convective tissue after significant time using AIs. I, myself, experienced the very same things and I've never had connective tissue or joint problems in my life. After 5 months of using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I did.

Lastly, long term Aromatase inhibitor (AI) use also contributes to a reduction in naturally produced GH. There is research that indicates that to be plausible and I experienced it first had as have some of you all.

So, what do we do to avoid using an AI?

Well, I think the most important thing to do is taper your Test dosages up very very slowly and monitor the blood changes including estrogen.

I, like a lot of guys on here, started my HRT with a 200 mg per week of test cyp dosage. Many of you guys are 200 mgs every 5 days.

What starts to happen on these type of dosage is we see significant peeks in total test in the 30-48 after injections that are well beyond normal physiological ranges. It would happened to me. I take my weekly 200 mg shot and BANG my levels would rocket up to 2000+ ng/dl and fall back to 1000 ng/dl over the course of the week. By drawing my blood work throughout the week and watching it, my estrogen would spike shortly after my test peeked and it too would drop back down to over the course of the week until my next weekly injection. So, being estrogen sensitive, I started to have issues. I assumed like many of us, "Hey, I need an AI!" So, I got on one and things got better. Sure after 5 months my joints were starting to hurt and my lipids were shifting but my estrogen was staying near 20 so I was all good.

Then I started to think. If I eliminate the test peeks that were cause the estrogen issues, I could quite the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and my joints might feel better. So, I started injecting smaller dosages more frequently. First on a 2 day a week schedule, then on a 3 day a week schedule. Guess what? It worked. My total test number peeks got smoother and smoother and my estrogen started to drop into the low single digits so I started to taper out the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) altogether. As i did that my estrogen returned to a comfortable level of 24 and and it stayed fairly stable there even though I was still using 200 mgs over the course of 7 days. I eliminated the peeks and the problem.

So, what took me months and months of trial and error to fix could have been handled on the front end if I had spread my injections out over multiple smaller applications during the week.

Of course, 3-4 injects during the week could actually present significant pains in the butt - really. So, that is why I switched to pinning with insulin needles. If I needed to, I could pin 25 mg of test cyp every day with an insulin pin and never have any discomfort at all.


So, there is my 2 cents on AIs. For long term HRT guys, I think we should work toward the goal of not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if at all possible. I've mentioned how I worked toward that objective.

I know some will always need Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and that is fine, but I'd suggest try to go without or as little as possible. No need to put another drug in the body when some proper protocol management techniques can eliminate the need for it.

 

[conklcl]

First, I am a big believer in not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if that is at all possible while on HRT.

Of course, 3-4 injects during the week could actually present significant pains in the butt - really. So, that is why I switched to pinning with insulin needles. If I needed to, I could pin 25 mg of test cyp every day with an insulin pin and never have any discomfort at all.)



I to am a big believer in not taking anything I don't have to. I am very new to all this but in the last 2 months I have seen my Estrogen go up
Estrone 37 f pg/mL,now67 f pg/mL
Total Estrogens 51 f pg/mL,now121 f pg/mL
Estradiol 14 f pg/mL,now54 f pg/mL

I still feel the same so at this time I am going to stay away from any AI

I to have moved to insulin needles after talking to you but no matter if I use insulin needles or a 25gauge I always hurt for 2 days after WHY IS THIS. I am doing 140mg e7ds

 

[conklcl]

how come when I quote I never see the blue box quote? in my note

 

[cashout]

First, I am a big believer in not using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) if that is at all possible while on HRT.

Of course, 3-4 injects during the week could actually present significant pains in the butt - really. So, that is why I switched to pinning with insulin needles. If I needed to, I could pin 25 mg of test cyp every day with an insulin pin and never have any discomfort at all.)



I to am a big believer in not taking anything I don't have to. I am very new to all this but in the last 2 months I have seen my Estrogen go up
Estrone 37 f pg/mL,now67 f pg/mL
Total Estrogens 51 f pg/mL,now121 f pg/mL
Estradiol 14 f pg/mL,now54 f pg/mL

I still feel the same so at this time I am going to stay away from any AI

I to have moved to insulin needles after talking to you but no matter if I use insulin needles or a 25gauge I always hurt for 2 days after WHY IS THIS. I am doing 140mg e7ds

I don't know why are are experience pain after injections. That only happened to me with Test Prop. like a bad bee sting for 2 days - hot to the touch and a red welt on the injection site. i never had that issue with anything but prop.

I would look at breaking up your 140 mgs into 3 separate and equal injections of about 45 mgs per and inject on a M/W/F schedule for at least 4 weeks. Breaking up my injections did wonders for my estrogen management.

I think you are not quoting with the blue box because you are accidentally deleting the "_/QUOTE_ " ending quote tag from the post which you are trying to quote.

 

[dfeaton]

Nice info Cashout. I'd like to try getting rid of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as well, but I am very estro sensitive. My estro number was 71 before I even started Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT). So I'm not sure it would be possible.

 

[conklcl]

I don't know why are are experience pain after injections. That only happened to me with Test Prop. like a bad bee sting for 2 days - hot to the touch and a red welt on the injection site. i never had that issue with anything but prop.

I would look at breaking up your 140 mgs into 3 separate and equal injections of about 45 mgs per and inject on a M/W/F schedule for at least 4 weeks. Breaking up my injections did wonders for my estrogen management.

I think you are not quoting with the blue box because you are accidentally deleting the "_/QUOTE_ " ending quote tag from the post which you are trying to quote.

Nice Cashout,I tell you it hurts when I inject and now you what me to do it 3 time a week nothing like being sore all the time.

I may try this next week maybe a smaller amount will help the soreness
Thanks

 

[cashout]

Nice info Cashout. I'd like to try getting rid of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as well, but I am very estro sensitive. My estro number was 71 before I even started Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT). So I'm not sure it would be possible.

A number that high without exogenous test would worry me too.

Above 45 and I start to have issues.

Prior to starting HRT my estrogen was in the mid-20 with a natural test number of 579 ng/dl.

The funny thing about that is, when I was in my 20s and 30s, my natural test number was consistant around 900 ng/dl and my estrogen never moved out of the mid 20s.

As long as my test numbers stay between 1000 - 1500 I'm okay. I creep up somewhat (low 30s). Once my test numbers cross the 1500 level I start to aromatize like crazy and jump up to the 50s really quickly. If left unchecked it keeps rising and I start to exhibit symptoms of gyno.

The other thing for me is that in terms of my test levels - I feel no different at 900 - 1000 ng/dl than I do at 2000 ng/dl. So, as long as I don't feel any different, I'm okay with the 900 - 1000 ng/dl range and that is what I am producing now naturally.

 

[Frustrated1]

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts cashout. I've been thinking of going E3D anyways. I think that I have things dialed in pretty close now, wondering if I should wait till I do another blood test to see where things are at, or call the Doc and see what he has to say about going e3d, dropping the arimidex. hmmm I might have to down my dosage of HCG if I drop the arimidex.

When I was playing with half lifes that's where it becomes blatantly obvious that e3d whould be great if you can handle the pain. I'm also a little concerned about fresh receptors going that often. 7 days to heal, e3d makes 6 days for the same spot or use another spot. But I'm also doing B12 and hcg.

And I should start a new thread for this, but what are the thoughts about filling the hcg with B12 instead of the anti bacterial water?

 

[cashout]

Just as a follow up, I went and looked at my old spreadsheet where I worked out the active mgs in the blood by day for different injection patterns.

There really is not a big difference between 2 days a week and 3 days a week

On the Mon/Thurs (100 mgs per inject of test cyp) schedule I eventually settled on the my peek mgs blood levels were 31 mgs on Monday and 30 mgs on Thursday.

Every other day during the week was between 22 - 29 mgs for the active mgs in the blood stream.

On a 200 mgs inject once a week, Mon, Tues, and Wed peek blood mgs were 40, 34, and 31 respectively.

What I found to be an issue for me was active mgs blood levels above 30 mgs per day.

On a 1 inject per week schedule of 200mgs I was clocking three consecutive days above 30 mgs of active drug in the blood. That seemed to cause too much aromatizetion and subsequent estrogen that I was using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to manage.

On a 2 or 3 days a week my peeks were much lower - on either 2 or 3 days a week inject schedule, I had peeks of 31 and 29 mgs and they were Mon/Thurs with a 2 days schedule and Wed/Fri with a 3 day injection schedule.

The key for me is staying under 30 mgs a day and NOT having 30ish levels for consecutive days in a week.

If I do that, I don't need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) because my total T never gets and stays high enough to become an issue for aromatization.

 

[Natehayes]

Thanks for the great info, Cashout!

I have had mixed results with AI's and would love to get away from them altogether. I already use slin pins for my injects so the move to multiple pins during the week is fine with me.

Your experience with keeping T under 30mg per injection was very interesting. I am going to split mine up to keep injections around that level and see how I do without an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I have minor pubertal gyno that flares easily when my E is too high so I should be able to tell fairly easily if it's working for me. If I didn't line in NY I would love to get blood tests along the way, but sad to say that is not possible.