Awesome Anti E Post

DADAWG

Community Veteran
COMPLIMENTS OF LIFTSIRON
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Serm/AI Definition And It's Products
Posted by LuvMuhRoids on IBE forums

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) Compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).

Aromatise Inhibitor (AI) Aromatase inhibitors exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM’s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain. ex: Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex). FEMARA (letrozole tablets).


NOTE: Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.


Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary.

by William Llewellyn





SERM:

Clomid, stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that
a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud
luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's
own testosterone production. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however
it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is
a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER)
and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen
from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.


Nolvadex, is very comparable to Clomid, behaves in the same manner in
all tissues, and is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist of the same
type as Clomid. The two molecules are also very similar in structure.
It is not correct that Nolvadex reduces levels of estrogen: rather, it
blocks estrogen from estrogen receptors and, in those tissues where it
is an antagonist, causes the receptor to do nothing.


Cyclofenil, similar to HCG and Clomid in action. This drug is most
commonly used to increase endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle
in an attempt to avoid a hard crash while waiting for your hormone
levels to naturally balance. Similar to HCG and Clomid, cyclofenil
seems to quickly and effectively raise natural levels. Cyclofenil is
an estrogen that works as an anti-estrogen as well as a testosterone
booster.



AI:

Femara, (letrozole tablets) for oral administration contain 2.5 mg of
letrozole, a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor (inhibitor of estrogen
synthesis). Letrozole is a nonsteroidal competitive inhibitor of the
aromatase enzyme system; it inhibits the conversion of androgens to
estrogens.


Cytadren, (aminoglutethimide) at moderate doses, is a fairly effective inhibitor of aromatase and a weak inhibitor of desmolase (an enzyme needed for the production of all steroids), and at higher doses becomes an effective
inhibitor of desmolase. It is therefore useful when using aromatizable
steroids, though it is not the drug of choice for this purpose.


Aromasin, tablets for oral administration contain 25 mg of exemestane,
an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator. Exemestane is
chemically described as 6-methylenandrosta-1,4-diene-3,17 -dione.


Anastrozole,(Arimidex) is the aromatase inhibitor of choice. The drug
is appropriately used when using substantial amounts of aromatizing
steroids, or when one is prone to gynecomastia and using moderate
amounts of such steroids. It is manufactured by Zenica Pharmaceuticals
and was approved for use in the United States at the end of Dec 1995.


Proviron, is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the
aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only
blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents
the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water
retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses
the forming of estrogens no re-bound effect occurs.


Teslac,is unique in its effectiveness as an antiestrogen. Like Proviron, it prevents the aromatizing process of the steroids from the
basis. Thus, Teslac prevents almost completely the introduction of more
estrogens into the blood and subsequent bonding with the estrogen
receptors.

6-OXO, contains a naturally occurring aromatase inhibitor that is devoid of any direct hormonal or prohormonal activity (androgenic or estrogenic). It is what science refers to as a "suicide inhibitor" of aromatase.

L-Dex, same as arimidex or anastrozole; known as an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and popular on chemical supply sites. This is the name given on chemical supply sites instead of it's original name. L-Dex meaning "Liquidex".

There are a number of chemical research sites that sell liquid products similar to the above mentioned items. These products are the same but in liquid form such as liquid clomid, liquid nolva, liquid femera, and liquid arimidex.

Dosage's are usually adminstered by droppers but dosage amounts per ml differ from site to site.




Also, even though bodybuilders resort to these products in paranoia of the affects of estrogen. It is important to remember, estrogen is necessary and must be balanced not completely inhibited in the system. Below is an excellent reading about the necessity of estrogen.

Please read on...

LMR



"To much is bad, but estrogen in moderation is priceless!"

by William Llewellyn

Can estrogen work to augment muscle growth? Is this hormone always unwanted when we are taking anabolic steroids? Anecdotal reports from athletes suggest that the use of estrogen maintenance drugs such as tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) or aminoglutethimide (anti-aromatase) may slightly hinder muscle mass gains during steroid therapy. An explanation or even clarification for this observation has not been easy to come by. Here I would like to take a look at the comparative effectiveness of certain aromatizable and non-aromatizable drugs, as well as the possible mechanism in which estrogen can play a beneficial role to the athlete.



The Androgen Receptor

All anabolic/androgenic steroids promote muscle growth primarily via the cellular androgen receptor (abbreviated as AR in this article). The steroid attaches to and activates the androgen receptor, which ultimately gives the cell an order to increase protein synthesis. This process is well understood. But it has been suggested that other mechanisms may foster muscle growth during steroid therapy as well, which lie outside of the androgen receptor. One way this is evidenced is by the fact that steroids displaying a high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue do not always promote an equally high level of muscle growth. In other words, anabolic potency does not always correspond perfectly to receptor affinity. Clearly there are some disparities that lead into question whether or not the androgen receptor is the only thing at work concerning growth.



Testosterone, Nandrolone and Methenolone

Testosterone is without question one of the most effective steroids for building muscle mass available to athletes. However it does not have the highest affinity for the androgen receptor compared to some other steroids. For example, it has been shown that by eliminating the 19-methyl group (nandrolone) the affinity of the steroid for the androgen receptor is greatly enhanced. Nandrolone thus displays approximately 2-3 times greater affinity for the androgen receptor compared to testosterone, yet its ability to promote muscle growth seems to be considerably lower than testosterone at an equal dosage. One discussed possibility for this occurrence is the reduced androgenic potency of nandrolone. While testosterone converts to the more active steroid dihydrotestosterone (3-4 times greater AR affinity) upon interaction with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in various androgenic target tissues such as the skin, scalp, prostate, CNS and liver, nandrolone drops to a third of its original potency by converting to the weak steroid dihydronandrolone[ii]. However this action is very site specific, and in muscle tissue nandrolone dominates as the active form of the steroid. Therefore this explanation may not suffice.



Nandrolone also differs from testosterone in its ability to be converted by the aromatase enzyme to estradiol (an active estrogen). In comparison, nandrolone aromatizes at approximately 20% of the rate testosterone does, and as such is not known as a very estrogenic steroid. It is likewise favored when reduced estrogenic side effects such as water retention, fat deposition and gynecomastia are desired. However athletes know that there is a trade off with the reduced tendency for nandrolone to promote side effects, in that it is a less anabolic steroid. With its known high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue, could this suggest that estrogen may also be a key mediator of muscle growth?



When we look at Primobolan® (methenolone) we see a similar trend. Methenolone is at least as good a binder of the androgen receptor as testosterone. By some accounts it is on par with nandrolone[iii]. However it is known to be much weaker than both steroids at promoting muscle growth. We know that methenolone does not interact with 5-alpha reductase, and as such its affinity for the AR does not increase or decrease in androgen target tissues. This would logically seem like a more favorable trait for anabolism over the weakening we see with nandrolone. However methenolone is a markedly weaker anabolic, and requires relatively high doses to promote growth. This also brings into question the role of 5-alpha reductase in promoting an anabolic state. Perhaps the fact that Primobolan® is a non-aromatizable steroid is more relevant.



Estrogen and GH/IGF-1

To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin C) is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels[iv]. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.



It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen[v]. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels[vi]. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action[vii]. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.



Glucose Utilization and Estrogen

Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation[viii] [ix]. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.



A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.



What does this all mean?

It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.

References

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
 
good article, simple and practical info. myself i think the hindrance of gains by using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on cycle is negligible compared to the precautionary benefits of keeping estrogen low.
Also, I was told by a urologist that clomid does absolutely nothing to stimulate LH and or FSH and that using it in an attempt to restore HPTA function post cycle is pointless.
 
blackjack said:
I was told by a urologist that clomid does absolutely nothing to stimulate LH and or FSH and that using it in an attempt to restore HPTA function post cycle is pointless.


Did he tell you what he thinks is effective?
 
blackjack said:
Also, I was told by a urologist that clomid does absolutely nothing to stimulate LH and or FSH and that using it in an attempt to restore HPTA function post cycle is pointless.

Interesting. I wonder what he was basing this on since nearly all of the relevant scientific studies seemingly come to the opposite conclusion.
 
Aboot said:
Interesting. I wonder what he was basing this on since nearly all of the relevant scientific studies seemingly come to the opposite conclusion.
probablly the same science that a lot of doctors use to say that steroids dont promote muscle growth lol
 
roccodart440 said:
Did he tell you what he thinks is effective?
he said nolvadex is the better choice for post cycle therapy (pct) as its a better estrogen blocker with cyclofenil and HCG to stimulate HPTA. I still prefer the idea of using HCG during the cycle as a preventive measure rather than a post cycle therapy (pct) recovery tool.
 
blackjack said:
he said nolvadex is the better choice for post cycle therapy (pct) as its a better estrogen blocker with cyclofenil and HCG to stimulate HPTA. I still prefer the idea of using HCG during the cycle as a preventive measure rather than a post cycle therapy (pct) recovery tool.

I don't believe that clomid isn't effective at reaisong test levels but I see more nd more info saying nlvadex is better.

hcg is an invaluable tool but cyclofenil is hard to get. I've yet to have seen it and I have read very little on how eactly to use it.
 
Here is an older article:

Female Fertility Drug May Combat Age-Related Male Testosterone Deficiency
Columbia Presbyterian Researchers Evaluate New Therapy
New York, NY (May 2003)—A drug used with great success to enhance fertility in women may also play a new role for the opposite sex—increasing low testosterone levels in men. The drug, clomiphene citrate (commonly known as Clomid*), is currently under study by researchers at the Male Reproductive Center at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital, as an alternative to currently available treatment options (which while effective, can cause multiple complications). Results of a preliminary study were announced April 29, 2003 at the American Urological Association Annual Meeting in Chicago.

“The results of our pilot study of clomiphene citrate indicate that it may have a significant new application. We’ve been able to show that it is very effective in raising male testosterone levels without the side effects usually associated with current therapies for this condition,” says Harry Fisch, MD, director of the Center and associate clinical professor of urology at Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons.
Declining testosterone levels can cause problems for many men as they age. Coupled with an increase in estrogen levels, this change in sex hormone levels may result in adverse effects on libido, sexual function, mood and behavior (such as depression, fatigue, irritability, memory loss, decrease in intellectual activity), lean body mass, and bone density, as well as the development of diabetes, weight gain, and muscle weakness.

It is known that average serum testosterone levels decrease by 1 percent per year after age 40; hypogonadism is detected in 20 percent of men older than 60 years. Hypogonadism in aging males affects over 5 million Americans. This decrease in testosterone production, or hypogonadism, in aging men is a combination of hypothalamus-pituitary axis dysfunction and testicular dysfunction with a consequent decreased production of testosterone. Luteinizing hormone (LH) levels in these men frequently are within the normal range despite low testosterone levels, which indicates potential hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction rather than primary testicular failure (abnormal high LH levels are associated with primary testicular failure).

Clomiphene citrate is a weak estrogen receptor antagonist that competes with estradiol (the most potent of the naturally occurring estrogens produced by both men and women) for the estrogen receptors at the level of the hypothalamus (the drug was recently reclassified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator [SERM] because of this ability). It blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol on the hypothalamus, which prevents estrogen from limiting the production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). The resulting increase in GnRH level then stimulates the pituitary gland to release more follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and LH, resulting in increased sperm and testosterone production by the testes.

Current treatment options for this type of hypogonadism in men are limited to testosterone supplementation via gels, patches, or intramuscular injections. These treatments can be associated with multiple side effects such as skin irritation, abnormally increased breast size, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and sperm count decline. Testosterone pills have been used in Europe and have been associated with liver and gastrointestinal dysfunction.

“Because of the combination of hypothalamus-pituitary axis dysfunction and testicular dysfunction seen in these men and because of the adverse effects of current therapies, we decided to explore means of causing the body to make more testosterone itself, rather than add testosterone to it from an outside source,” explains Dr. Fisch. “The increase in testosterone would then be accomplished without side effects,” he adds.
The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level < 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. “In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy,” points out Dr. Fisch.

According to Dr. Fisch, this preliminary study revealed some promising results. “We’ve been able to show that clomiphene citrate induces internal production of testosterone via blockage of the hypothalamic estrogen receptor. This effect presents a unique therapeutic opportunity for the management of hypogonadism in aging men. Low-dose oral therapy with minimum side effect may prove to be an excellent substitute to transdermal or injectable testosterone alternatives. However, further investigation is needed, as well as phase II studies that will determine the optimal dose for different age groups. And methodical measurements of muscle strength, weight, sexual function, exercise tolerance, bone density, and mood changes are required before accepting this drug as a standard of care for hypogonadism” he concludes.
 
Here is an abstract from a more recent study:

The Journal of Sexual Medicine
Volume 2 Page 716 - September 2005
doi:10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00075.x
Volume 2 Issue 5


Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism
Ahmad Shabsigh, MD1, Young Kang, MD1, Ridwan Shabsign, MD1, Mark Gonzalez, MD1, Gary Liberson, MD1, Harry Fisch, MD1, and Erik Goluboff, MD1

ABSTRACT

Aim. Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testostosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.

Methods. Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

Results. The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 ± 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 ± 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4–6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 ± 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

Conclusions. Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estadiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway. Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, and Goluboff E. Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism. J Sex Med 2005;2:716–721.
 
Would be some more good info if we could also add to the above post, different side effects associated with either HIGH ESTROGEN or LOW ESTROGEN.

Because blood tests are paid for by the Government where I live , it's impossible to get them to test your Estrogen level because most doctors here say that Estrogen plays no important roles, which we all know is bullshit.

Anyway, if people could post here what side effects they were having, then had blood done and found their Estrogen was either low or high, it could benefit many others in adjusting their Aromatase inhibitor (AI) dosage. I've read where the sides are similar whether high or low but there has to be something that seperates the two. I know I for one, was having issues, and there was no way in hell my doctor was willing to test my Estro because he said it's not important. So I had to keep playing with the dosage until I figured out if my Estro was high or low. Some of us also don't have the option of paying to get blood work done so we're in a pretty shitty spot.
 
Would be some more good info if we could also add to the above post, different side effects associated with either HIGH ESTROGEN or LOW ESTROGEN.

Because blood tests are paid for by the Government where I live , it's impossible to get them to test your Estrogen level because most doctors here say that Estrogen plays no important roles, which we all know is bullshit.

Anyway, if people could post here what side effects they were having, then had blood done and found their Estrogen was either low or high, it could benefit many others in adjusting their Aromatase inhibitor (AI) dosage. I've read where the sides are similar whether high or low but there has to be something that seperates the two. I know I for one, was having issues, and there was no way in hell my doctor was willing to test my Estro because he said it's not important. So I had to keep playing with the dosage until I figured out if my Estro was high or low. Some of us also don't have the option of paying to get blood work done so we're in a pretty shitty spot.

some sides are similar but bloating which can cause high blood pressure is associated with high estrogen only and the same goes for gyno.
use ONLY enough antiestrogens to keep gyno and bloat under control and not any more than that . and as info a tiny bit of bloat that doesnt cause blood pressure problems is fine and not a cause to jump on high dose antiestrogens .
 
Should I use a nova or clomid during my cycle or is it only post. Im very nervouse I feel like im getting titts
 
Should I use a nova or clomid during my cycle or is it only post. Im very nervouse I feel like im getting titts

imo use aromasin or arimidex during cycle to control estrogen and use clomid / nolva during pct.
 
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