Bunk Aromasin?

[WalkingDead]

Edit: Walkingdead, have you ever had your bloods tested before this cycle? I don't want to scare you, but those results could indicate you have something else going on. I'd suggest talking to a doctor (leaving AAS out of the discussion imo) and seeing what they have to say. EOS/ALT/BUN levels being elevated at the same time might very well mean you have an infection or something along those lines... (I'm not a doctor, just going by experience and stuff I've read - so take that for what it's worth)

Absolutely bro! I always do bloods, I did one after my last PCT and all was good. All these issues are brand new. It cant be a coincidence that this is my first Tren cycle and this is the fist time I have seen such fucked up bloods. I think Tren just isnt for me man. Im going to dump the Tren completely and finish up on the Test Prop and see how my liver recovers.

Now, since our stupid fucking government has made AAS illegal there are tons of variables that just cant be accounted for from UGL sources. Honestly, who the fuck knows what kind of weird shit is in my Tren. Other guys might be doing the same dose with better gear and have absolutely zero issues. But for me, right now, with these bloods, and this gear that I have....game over. Im done with the Tren.

Im also going to bump up the Aromasin to 25mg/ED and see if I can get that fucking estro down below 40 or 50 as well.

 

[Docd187]

Not calling you out, but where did you get that exemestane has a half life of 8 hours? Everything I've ever read states 27 hours being the half life for it.
Exemestane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Juced, you don't get any harsh sides from running letro as your on-cycle/blast AI? I've always been an adex/asin guy, but if the sides aren't bad, it certainly seems a cheaper way to go.

Edit: Walkingdead, have you ever had your bloods tested before this cycle? I don't want to scare you, but those results could indicate you have something else going on. I'd suggest talking to a doctor (leaving AAS out of the discussion imo) and seeing what they have to say. EOS/ALT/BUN levels being elevated at the same time might very well mean you have an infection or something along those lines... (I'm not a doctor, just going by experience and stuff I've read - so take that for what it's worth)

The half life of exemestane is REPORTED as 27hrs but here's an excerpt from a 2003 study:

"The maximum plasma concentration, time to achieve maximal concentrations and oral clearance for exemestane after oral administration of a single dose of 25 mg in the present study of males were similar to those reported for females (21, 22, 23). The terminal half-life in the present study (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h (23). The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to a true gender dependency possibly involving the volume of distribution (lower in males than females) and plasma or tissue protein binding (respectively, higher and lower in males). This finding may also be due to the lower sensitivity of the analytical methodology used in the previous studies (14 pg/ml by HPLC/RIA) (21)."


Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[halfwit]

The half life of stane in males is significantly less than that in females - like 8-9hrs. I am firmly becoming convinced that stane is very often being under-dosed by us. More to follow with data to support this contention.

Thanks Jimi, I do appreciate you looking into it. I just recently made the switch to aromasin to see if adex was making me sleepy at higher doses. I'd hate to spike my E2 by underdosing unintentionally!

Absolutely bro! I always do bloods, I did one after my last PCT and all was good. All these issues are brand new. It cant be a coincidence that this is my first Tren cycle and this is the fist time I have seen such fucked up bloods. I think Tren just isnt for me man. Im going to dump the Tren completely and finish up on the Test Prop and see how my liver recovers.

Now, since our stupid fucking government has made AAS illegal there are tons of variables that just cant be accounted for from UGL sources. Honestly, who the fuck knows what kind of weird shit is in my Tren. Other guys might be doing the same dose with better gear and have absolutely zero issues. But for me, right now, with these bloods, and this gear that I have....game over. Im done with the Tren.

Im also going to bump up the Aromasin to 25mg/ED and see if I can get that fucking estro down below 40 or 50 as well.

I totally hear you man. I truly hope everything works out for you in the end!

The half life of exemestane is REPORTED as 27hrs but here's an excerpt from a 2003 study:

"The maximum plasma concentration, time to achieve maximal concentrations and oral clearance for exemestane after oral administration of a single dose of 25 mg in the present study of males were similar to those reported for females (21, 22, 23). The terminal half-life in the present study (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h (23). The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to a true gender dependency possibly involving the volume of distribution (lower in males than females) and plasma or tissue protein binding (respectively, higher and lower in males). This finding may also be due to the lower sensitivity of the analytical methodology used in the previous studies (14 pg/ml by HPLC/RIA) (21)."


Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

VERY interesting! The only thing that bothers me with that excerpt is that they state, "This finding may also be due to the lower sensitivity of the analytical methodology used in the previous studies (14 pg/ml by HPLC/RIA) (21)." I'm definitely going to be retesting in about two weeks to see how my dosing of 12.5mg ED has been going. I have a feeling now that I'm going to be bumping it up to 25mg ED. Still curious about letro as a daily Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as all I've ever heard were negatives and that it should be only reserved as a gyno reversal drug.

Thanks for the information!

 

[SolomonGrundy]

daily 12.5 has me in a good spot but im going to toss in some random second doses at night after injections. current E2 is 35 on 500mg test

 

[Ridiculous87]

daily 12.5 has me in a good spot but im going to toss in some random second doses at night after injections. current E2 is 35 on 500mg test

Are you taking 12.5 every morning right now? When you add your extra dose on pinning days, are you going to take an additional 12.5 at night or 6.25?

 

[Docd187]

Thanks Jimi, I do appreciate you looking into it. I just recently made the switch to aromasin to see if adex was making me sleepy at higher doses. I'd hate to spike my E2 by underdosing unintentionally!


I totally hear you man. I truly hope everything works out for you in the end!



VERY interesting! The only thing that bothers me with that excerpt is that they state, "This finding may also be due to the lower sensitivity of the analytical methodology used in the previous studies (14 pg/ml by HPLC/RIA) (21)." I'm definitely going to be retesting in about two weeks to see how my dosing of 12.5mg ED has been going. I have a feeling now that I'm going to be bumping it up to 25mg ED. Still curious about letro as a daily Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as all I've ever heard were negatives and that it should be only reserved as a gyno reversal drug.

Thanks for the information!

You're right it is cause for concern but IMO (which isn't much lol) the physiological factors in males higher test levels, exogenous test supplementation, etc it makes more sense that the half life is shorter due to these factors and not (or solely) because of the analytical method.

 

[halfwit]

You're right it is cause for concern but IMO (which isn't much lol) the physiological factors in males higher test levels, exogenous test supplementation, etc it makes more sense that the half life is shorter due to these factors and not (or solely) because of the analytical method.

Totally agree, I learned something new today from this thread and do appreciate the information!

 

[Turkey_535i]

Well shit if that's the case I need to get some more aromasin, I was only planning on taking 12.5 eod for cycle, derp.

 

[halfwit]

Well shit if that's the case I need to get some more aromasin, I was only planning on taking 12.5 eod for cycle, derp.

I'd still get a blood test done (That's what I'm going to do soon) just to make sure. It's a lot easier to bring E2 levels down than it is to bring them back up!

 

[Turkey_535i]

I'd still get a blood test done (That's what I'm going to do soon) just to make sure. It's a lot easier to bring E2 levels down than it is to bring them back up!

Very true, my buddy does Dbol oral cycles only. He does post cycle therapy (pct) with his dbol cycles but I don't think he takes any type of Aromatase inhibitor (AI), should he be with oral cycles???

 

[Docd187]

Totally agree, I learned something new today from this thread and do appreciate the information!

As I'm learning new things everyday from ppl on this board such as yourself. Thanks brother. I'm a closet nerd and love going through pubmed, ncbi, and others in my spare time lol. Fucked up my ankle Saturday night and made it worse at work on Monday so today I'm home in bed bored out of my mind on here!

 

[halfwit]

Very true, my buddy does Dbol oral cycles only. He does post cycle therapy (pct) with his dbol cycles but I don't think he takes any type of Aromatase inhibitor (AI), should he be with oral cycles???

I'd get him on some test since he's suppressing his natural levels by taking dbol and pretty much only reducing his gains in the long run. Yes, an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should be used with dbol as it does aromatize HEAVILY and I've seen more guys get nasty sides from that drug than any other in my experiences.

As I'm learning new things everyday from ppl on this board such as yourself. Thanks brother. I'm a closet nerd and love going through pubmed, ncbi, and others in my spare time lol. Fucked up my ankle Saturday night and made it worse at work on Monday so today I'm home in bed bored out of my mind on here!

That's pretty much what I do in my spare time as this topic truly intrigues me. I've probably learned more about AAS than what I'm going to school for in the last year or so, lol. Sorry to hear about your ankle!

 

[Docd187]

Well shit if that's the case I need to get some more aromasin, I was only planning on taking 12.5 eod for cycle, derp.

The thing with studies you have to remember is that not every factor is taken into account and everybody is different but most importantly you have to think about context. Yes the terminal half life in men is shorter in the study I posted, but what does that matter if YOU as an individual do not have a tendency to aromatizes exogenous test to a high degree? That's why everyone recommends (or should at least) bloodwork before, after, and at least once during cycle. If you're taking exemestane at 12.5mg/EOD but mid-cycle bloodwork shows your estradiol levels to be very low, do you really need to take it ED just because the half life is shorter in men? Not really, you'd be controlling the variable in this case estrogen with your current protocol so need to change. Also in some studies

"Our results are in agreement with those of previously published Aromatase inhibitor (AI) lipid trials. Exemestane does not have the protective effect of tamoxifen on lipids. A trend for decreased HDL levels was noticed across time in patients with long-term exemestane treatment."

"Conversely, the use of AIs has raised some concerns with respect to lipid profiles because of estrogen deprivation caused by aromatase inhibition"

"Initial results of the LEAP trial directly compare safety parameters between the steroidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) exemestane and the nonsteroidal AIs anastrozole and letrozole in 90 healthy postmenopausal women [46]. Initial results show that no significant differences exist between anastrozole and letrozole in effects on LDL/HDL ratios, triglyceride concentrations, and non-HDL concentrations. Exemestane was associated with an increase in the LDL/HDL ratio (+17) (P = 0.047) compared with anastrozole. No median change from baseline is seen in total serum cholesterol for letrozole, a slight increase for anastrozole (+0.4), and a nonsignificant decrease for exemestane (-3.9) (P = 0.164 vs. anastrozole)."

Extended adjuvant hormonal therapy with exemestane has no detrimental effect on the lipid profile of postmenopausal breast cancer patients: final results of the ATENA lipid substudy

^^^basically AI's such as exemestane have been shown to affect lipid profiles by lowering HDL and therefore raising the ratio of LDL/HDL. If you have cholesterol problems and bloodwork says you're estrogen is in check, why up the dosage and cause other problems. Food for thought.

 

[WalkingDead]

Are you taking 12.5 every morning right now? When you add your extra dose on pinning days, are you going to take an additional 12.5 at night or 6.25?

There is a good point as well. I wonder if timing plays any part. I drop my Aromasin right after I pin at 6pm. Maybe splitting 12.5am and 12.5pm might be the better route.

 

[Docd187]

There is a good point as well. I wonder if timing plays any part. I drop my Aromasin right after I pin at 6pm. Maybe splitting 12.5am and 12.5pm might be the better route.

Not sure if this helps your specific question but tablet form vs suspension form slows down absorption time of aromasin as does post meal vs fasted state but not to a statistically significant degree. Total plasma concentration is not affected by time of day of dosing either.

"The observed plasma concentrations of exemestane following administration after breakfast were higher than those observed during fasting. The absorption rate of exemestane when administered as a suspension was almost four times faster than when it was administered as a tablet, as might be expected based on the physicochemical properties of a suspension compared with a tablet. Food intake appears to decrease the rate of absorption of exemestane probably through a delay in gastric emptying rate and an increase in intestinal motility and splanchnic blood flow "

"The maximum effect of exemestane on E1S was similar for the three treatment groups. The time to maximum effect was almost the same, and the E1S values returned to the baseline concentrations at the end of the study in all groups. These results show that differences found in the absorption of exemestane were not large enough to cause a difference in the PD effect."

Probably the most important quote: "In conclusion, the absorption of exemestane depends both on its formulation and whether or not the subject is fasting, whereas the disposition of the drug is independent of these factors. The observed differences in the absorption do no translate into differences in PD. Thus, the drug was able to produce maximum of inhibition of the synthesis of E1S after all treatments."

A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation - Valle - 2005 - British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology - Wiley Online Library

Since terminal half life in males, in one study at least, was around 8hours and assuming you want to take 2doses/day take it as evenly spaced apart as possible to keep plasma concentrations as even as possible. Food or fasting only makes a difference in how fast you reach max plasma concentration but does not change the effectiveness (PD) of the drug.

 

[Ridiculous87]

All of this information is making me wish I had got Adex instead of aromasin for my cycle. So many unknowns.

 

[Docd187]

All of this information is making me wish I had got Adex instead of aromasin for my cycle. So many unknowns.

Anastrozole isn't without it's faults either. Next cycle try it and see which one works better and gives you less sides.

 

[Docd187]

I'd get him on some test since he's suppressing his natural levels by taking dbol and pretty much only reducing his gains in the long run. Yes, an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) should be used with dbol as it does aromatize HEAVILY and I've seen more guys get nasty sides from that drug than any other in my experiences.

That's pretty much what I do in my spare time as this topic truly intrigues me. I've probably learned more about AAS than what I'm going to school for in the last year or so, lol. Sorry to hear about your ankle!

Another nerd, awesome lmao!! Just playing. You didn't have to tell me about it though, it's been evidenced throughout many of your posts. What I've learned about school is this: you get taught things that may be old or outdated and by professors with built in biases. School to me is not so much about the actual learning you do but about understanding the process of learning and how to use that as a foundation to teach yourself. Being able to read through studies and research articles, critiquing methodologies, looking for bias in the experimenters, etc you learn to dissect information that school might not teach you due to time, bias, use of outdated materials etc.

Thanks for the sympathy. Just got back from the doctor and hospital, said I either just strained something or may have a small stress fracture. I'm more pissed I had to miss a training day than anything. Got an x-ray and will hear back tomorrow. For now ice and aleve lol.

 

[WalkingDead]

Alright! So all is on track now! Got my bloods two weeks after dropping the Tren and reducing the cycle to 70mg/ed Test P with 25mg/ed Arom for the first week and 12.5mg/ed Armom the second week.
As you can see my liver made 100% fucking recovery! Thank God! And my estro is in the sweet spot!! Fuck yeah! Im really relieved right now! Unfortunately I had to use another Lab because of my location and these guys cap out your Test at 1500 so I have no idea where my real Test levels are at, it could be 1501 or it could be fucking 5001 who knows. That shit is really annoying.

As for the cycle, I still have the rock solid feel to my muscles that the Tren gave me, I haven't made any weight gains since dropping the Tren but I have still made some strength gains and feel stronger than ever in the gym. Best of all the Tren cough is gone and I actually feel like I can breath! Which honestly, I felt like all that panting and gasping for air was fucking up my workouts anyway.

Ok, so lessons learned as I see it from this research. Of course with the disclaimer that this isn't an exact science, every single person is different and there are a million variables that might not be evaluated. But, for me personally, this is my takeaway...

1) Tren A (from my UGL and for my body) is fucking liver toxic! No fucking doubt in my mind right now. Like I said, I did alot of research on that and most Bro's are still split 50/50 on that topic. I have my answer for me personally.
2) Probably worth starting Aromasin at 25mg/ed and then dialing it back to 12.5/ed maybe for the remainder of the cycle. We'll see. But bottom line (again, from my UGL and my body) 12.5mg/eod does not cut it! Not even close.
3) Liver makes a fast full recover after SHORT TERM Tren usage at low/moderate dose. I did 35 days straight of 50-70mg/ed Tren A, liver values went through the roof, and two weeks after quitting my liver is back at 100%. So what this tells me for the future, if I want to do a calculated risk with a short 4-6 week Tren A cycle its probably not going to have any permanent damage. (at least to my liver, who knows about any other systems tho)
4) Tren A sides for me on this were low. Really nothing other than very slight backne, insane non-stop Tren cough and my liver dying everything else was fantastic. Slept like a baby, mood super chill and relaxed, Im normally a pretty relaxed dude but I felt all around "good" emotionally on this stuff. Also, I should make the personally note based on my own experience that "Roid Rage" is nothing more than a media lie to scare the public and the Bro's that go nuts on their "Roid Rage" and beat their girlfriends are just using it as the excuse of the hour to find a reason to be a bigger dick than they already are. But the "Roid Rage" topic could be a thread all on its own. Suffice it to say, I have never experience "Roid Rage" on any kind of gear to include Dbol and now my first Tren A experience.

Thats pretty much my takaway here, I do think I made the right choice to drop the Tren when I did since I had to know what was happening but I think 6 weeks of Tren would have ended up being no issue at the end of the day.

View attachment 550570

 

[Turkey_535i]

Nice glad to see estro ina good range, I'm still gonna do 12.5 eod until bloodwork at week 5 and adjust as needed.