Cashout... Propecia help

[TR2838]

I was wondering w/ propecia decreasing DHT. Does that mean that propecia will increase conversion to estrogen.. This line of thought comes from my understanding that test WILL convert to either DHT or Estrogen.. Is this correct?
I asked for Cashouts help bc he uses it and read over 200 studies on the use of finasteride.. But, of course anyone w/ knowledge on this, feedback is appreciated

 

[cashout]

I was wondering w/ propecia decreasing DHT. Does that mean that propecia will increase conversion to estrogen.. This line of thought comes from my understanding that test WILL convert to either DHT or Estrogen.. Is this correct?
I asked for Cashouts help bc he uses it and read over 200 studies on the use of finasteride.. But, of course anyone w/ knowledge on this, feedback is appreciated

That is one possibility.

In effect, what is happening is that by eliminating the Type II 5-AR iso-enzyme that reduces test to iso-II DHT, you are increasing the available total test in the blood. Any time there is more total test, there is a possibility that more of it will be converted to estrogen.

If you are using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), this problem will be mitigated in advance so you would not see much, if any, increase in overall estrogen.

 

[cjw2021]

i would not even be comfortable flushing a pill of propecia down the toilet. I'd have to burn it in an open field. those alpha reductase inhibitors can permanently fuck you up after 1-2 doses.

 

[TR2838]

Yea I was more than a little hesitant to take propecia, but I've been on it for 8 weeks now and no sides.. I couldn't accept losing all my hair at 34. I don't look good bald! I know that from when I went through boot camp.. It would be devestating to me if I lost my hair.. So, I weighed out the slim possibilities of propecia sides to the absolute depression from Low T or a Bald head and took the dive.. The hair stopped shedding! Thank God no sides

 

[cashout]

i would not even be comfortable flushing a pill of propecia down the toilet. I'd have to burn it in an open field. those alpha reductase inhibitors can permanently fuck you up after 1-2 doses.

Personal experience or supposition?

 

[cjw2021]

I know people that have taken finasteride 2 times and it completely destroyed their aromatase enzyme. My buddy took propecia. The next time I saw him, he was dressing like a woman and is probably switched to liking guys now. (not that that has anything to do with it, just a funny story.)

Take sublingual pregnenolone 10-15mg twice a day. That is saving my hair. The reaosn the hair is falling out is partly due to negative feedback. LH stimulates the enzymes that convert cholesterol into pregnenolone. pregnenolone converts to progesterone which downregulates testosterone. I have heard of a guy saying adding in this pregnenolone is saving his hairline. It seems to be working for me too. I'd have thought for sure I'd be bald by now.

 

[cashout]

I know people that have taken finasteride 2 times and it completely destroyed their aromatase enzyme. My buddy took propecia. The next time I saw him, he was dressing like a woman and is probably switched to liking guys now. (not that that has anything to do with it, just a funny story.)

Take sublingual pregnenolone 10-15mg twice a day. That is saving my hair. The reaosn the hair is falling out is partly due to negative feedback. LH stimulates the enzymes that convert cholesterol into pregnenolone. pregnenolone converts to progesterone which downregulates testosterone. I have heard of a guy saying adding in this pregnenolone is saving his hairline. It seems to be working for me too. I'd have thought for sure I'd be bald by now.

Do you have any empirical studies that I can read to explore this?

I ask because I've never seen the reductase pathway mitigated via that mechanism.

So, I am curious as to how and where there is an interface.

 

[cjw2021]

There may be studies, I've never looked. But the reason these drugs work is because they downregulate and sometimes destroy the alpha reductase enzyme. Just google "propecia sexual side effects" or "propecia help". There are THOUSANDS of people online claiming they have sexual problems from these drugs, and many of them have labs posted showing a low DHT level. That's how these drugs spare your hair. Some people may not be affected. Dr. John Crisler has tons of patients that are finasteride victims and has openly stated on his radio show that just 2 doses of finasteride caused one of his patients destruction of his alpha reductase enzyme.

 

[cashout]

There may be studies, I've never looked. But the reason these drugs work is because they downregulate and sometimes destroy the alpha reductase enzyme. Just google "propecia sexual side effects" or "propecia help". There are THOUSANDS of people online claiming they have sexual problems from these drugs, and many of them have labs posted showing a low DHT level. That's how these drugs spare your hair. Some people may not be affected. Dr. John Crisler has tons of patients that are finasteride victims and has openly stated on his radio show that just 2 doses of finasteride caused one of his patients destruction of his alpha reductase enzyme.

You misunderstood my question.

I know all about 5-AR reductase inhibitors and the mechanisms through which they exert their respective effects.

Yes, as you stated, some people do experience side effects when using these drugs.

I am not questioning that.

What I want to know about is this statement "The reaosn the hair is falling out is partly due to negative feedback. LH stimulates the enzymes that convert cholesterol into pregnenolone. pregnenolone converts to progesterone which downregulates testosterone."

As I understand it, the 5-AR enzyme plays a secondary, BUT NOT A SINGULAR, role in conversion of progesterone to dihhydroprogesterone (DHP). From that point, DHP is reduced by 3alpha-HSD to allopregnenolone and is an up regulator for ONLY the type A receptor for of gamma amino butyric acid (GABA). Those receptors are not present in hair follicles.

So what does the statement you made have to do with the androgen receptor on the follicle?

As I read it, you are stating that by taking pregnenolone you are suppressing your testostrone production indirectly.

That makes no sense to me especially if you are injecting exogenous testosterone on a Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) protocol.

 

[AlanLat]

i would not even be comfortable flushing a pill of propecia down the toilet. I'd have to burn it in an open field. those alpha reductase inhibitors can permanently fuck you up after 1-2 doses.

Finasteride (aka Propecia) probably is what put me on trt.

Of 5 guys that I know who have used propecia all except 1 noticed side effects such as low libido, decreased wood firmness and sensitivity, weight gain around the middle, etc.

The last guy is very overweight and probably never had a sex drive to begin with.

 

[TR2838]

I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew another guy that was fat and couldn't get it up and I think he might have taken propecia,but, I'm not sure?

 

[cjw2021]

Cashout, all I said was that pregnenolone and cortisol downregulate DHT metabolism. Apparently high dose preg down regulates DHT quite a bit according to labs I have seen. No I have not smothered myself in preg cream and ran labs and no I'm not personally scared of DHT or hair loss. I take preg and it converts to prog which downregulates dht. I'm talking about prog downregulating DHT not directly blocking dht in the hair follice. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cashout have you ever taken propecia or finasteride? I would never suggest such a drug to anyone having seen the permanent effects they have in some patients. I personally have a friend that took it. Dr. John Crisler has tons of patients that never recovered their DHT levels after taking it. One of his patients only took two doses. If you think I'm making this up do some googling or browse his forum.

 

[cashout]

Cashout, all I said was that pregnenolone and cortisol downregulate DHT metabolism. Apparently high dose preg down regulates DHT quite a bit according to labs I have seen. No I have not smothered myself in preg cream and ran labs and no I'm not personally scared of DHT or hair loss. I take preg and it converts to prog which downregulates dht. I'm talking about prog downregulating DHT not directly blocking dht in the hair follice. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cashout have you ever taken propecia or finasteride? I would never suggest such a drug to anyone having seen the permanent effects they have in some patients. I personally have a friend that took it. Dr. John Crisler has tons of patients that never recovered their DHT levels after taking it. One of his patients only took two doses. If you think I'm making this up do some googling or browse his forum.

Seems we have two separate issues that we are discussing here so I'll take each in turn.

To the first point, again, you are saying that
pregnenolone "down regulates" DHT.

I will tell you that when you are injecting test as you are on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Pregnenolone will suppress test production in those individuals who are not introducing exgounous test into their system. Therefore, that will indirectly lower the possible opportunity for test to convert to DHT by the fact that there is less test available to be convert b/c the body is producing less test.

If you are injecting test, there will always be a stable and readily available level of test in the body. If you are injecting test as you are, pregnenolone WILL NOT "down regulate" DHT. Pregnenolone does nothing to inhibit the 5-AR enzyme. In fact, pregnenolone interacts with the 5-AR enzyme just as test dose to convert to DHP just as Test interacts with the 5-AR to convert to DHT.

Which brings me back to what I stated last post - what you said about using pregnenolone as a DHT inhibtor on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) makes not sense.


To the second topic regarding finasteride, I'll say it again - I am not refuting that 5-AR inhibitors produce side effects in some individuals.

Therefore, I don't think your making anything up.

Now, I'll tell you that I've used finasteride every day for the last 16 years.

I participated in 2 separate clinical trials for the drug in the early 90's.

I have read every one of the 248 published peer-reviewed medical journal articles that have examined the various effects of the drug.

I'll also tell you that I think you are making a very common mistake of extrapolating from a very small sample or even worse anecdotal evidence.