Cutting questions with NO AAS

[omgmike1]

Does anyone know if the whole muscle loss thing during cutting is true? I feel like I recall reading a article that talked about it not being so true and that it's mostly fat burned with the study having the ppl NOT work out and low protein in take..

Thoughts?

I'm talking about no AAS during the cut too.

 

[Megatron28]

Low protein consumption while in a caloric deficit with no muscle loss? Really?

 

[omgmike1]

Low protein consumption while in a caloric deficit with no muscle loss? Really?

No. I read a study a while back. It used people that took in low protein and did not work out. Most ppl used that study as a basis to say that u lose muscle when cutting if u drop it too fast...

I'm trying to figure out if HIGH protein + 1000 or so deficit. Would allow huge muscle loss. OR is this whole cutting too fast over rated?

 

[Matt0071]

Cycling your carbs works wonders
U should talk to 3j and he could set something up for u, and I am.sure u will save a lot of time wondering lol

 

[Matt0071]

The lower u get in bf if things are not right diet wise the more u get in that danger zone of muscle loss
Why fuck around with muscle u worked so hard to put on

 

[halfwit]

There are lots of ways to lose muscle mass. Too much of a deficit will force your body to use muscle for calories, especially if they're not being used. Your hormones can plummet if not enough calories are consumed (especially fats), which can lead to catabolism. Insufficient protein will lead to the body using what it has in a deficit.

The list goes on and on.

I agree though, 3J will easily be able to set you up properly. I'd start in his diet thread, and you can even hire him to write a program for you. Many guys here have used his services (me included) and have had nothing but fantastic results.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

The study your referring to is the Minnesota starvation study.
It placed individuals on a severe caloric deficit(IIRC 40%+) with low protein intake, no resistance training and low intensity cardio (walking, farm work, etc) as the only notable activity for just over a year.
All the individuals hit 5%bf without fail.

The study showed that muscle loss will NEVER overtake fat loss but certainly didn't suggest that you can get away with low protein intake.
Of the total weight lost, 40% came from LBM - that is ALOT.

Most people tend to lose around 1 pound of LBM for every 4 pounds of fat loss (25%) with good protein intake & training in place. Of course this depends on p-ratio, etc but is a good guideline to show what is acceptable.

In short, cutting on a low protein diet is a pretty fucking stupid idea since higher protein intake is the best saviour of your own protein stores AKA your muscles

 

[omgmike1]

The study your referring to is the Minnesota starvation study.
It placed individuals on a severe caloric deficit(IIRC 40%+) with low protein intake, no resistance training and low intensity cardio (walking, farm work, etc) as the only notable activity for just over a year.
All the individuals hit 5%bf without fail.

The study showed that muscle loss will NEVER overtake fat loss but certainly didn't suggest that you can get away with low protein intake.
Of the total weight lost, 40% came from LBM - that is ALOT.

Most people tend to lose around 1 pound of LBM for every 4 pounds of fat loss (25%) with good protein intake & training in place. Of course this depends on p-ratio, etc but is a good guideline to show what is acceptable.

In short, cutting on a low protein diet is a pretty fucking stupid idea since higher protein intake is the best saviour of your own protein stores AKA your muscles

So does the deficit matter? If I dropped 5 lbs in a week, 1 lb would be lean mass? So if I dropped 2 lbs a week.. it's less fat lost, but more muscle saved? Why would the deficit matter then if the mass is gona be lost anyways..?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

So does the deficit matter? If I dropped 5 lbs in a week, 1 lb would be lean mass? So if I dropped 2 lbs a week.. it's less fat lost, but more muscle saved? Why would the deficit matter then if the mass is gona be lost anyways..?

IME the deficit doesn't matter when it comes to muscle loss.
Genetics are the primary decider when it comes to how much muscle your going to lose with nutritional strategies (higher protein intake, refeed days, etc) only making a small difference - 10/15% at best.

The only reason most people don't use larger deficits is because they can't handle them psychologically.
They get hungry, fatigued, etc and end up binging.

I personally prefer larger deficits because, IMO, it's pretty stupid to stay in a caloric deficit for a long period of time if you actually want to keep the fat off. Contest prep (temporary fat loss) is a different story.
Plus the fact that losing fat faster is pretty motivating, etc.

It comes down to this - can you stick to a larger sized deficit?
If the answer is no, then all of this is moot anyway.

 

[omgmike1]

IME the deficit doesn't matter when it comes to muscle loss.
Genetics are the primary decider when it comes to how much muscle your going to lose with nutritional strategies (higher protein intake, refeed days, etc) only making a small difference - 10/15% at best.

The only reason most people don't use larger deficits is because they can't handle them psychologically.
They get hungry, fatigued, etc and end up binging.

I personally prefer larger deficits because, IMO, it's pretty stupid to stay in a caloric deficit for a long period of time if you actually want to keep the fat off. Contest prep (temporary fat loss) is a different story.
Plus the fact that losing fat faster is pretty motivating, etc.

It comes down to this - can you stick to a larger sized deficit?
If the answer is no, then all of this is moot anyway.

So honestly, U feel that if I followed a routine of cutting around 1000-1500 deficit. Losing about 1.5-2lbs a week of hopefully fat, with 250g Protein atleast @ 191 lb, would be good enough to preserve lean mass? I'm not worried about the mental part.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

So honestly, U feel that if I followed a routine of cutting around 1000-1500 deficit. Losing about 1.5-2lbs a week of hopefully fat, with 250g Protein atleast @ 191 lb, would be good enough to preserve lean mass? I'm not worried about the mental part.

Yes.

You may want to bump the protein up to 350g depending on how lean you are.
Also, make sure you control your training volume - too much can and will hurt you in a large deficit.

 

[ADenver]

I recently read a study that said you can gain 2lbs of muscle a week on eating 10 pop tarts a day.

Point being, most "studies" are done with a purpose, to prove the point they want. Skewing the results to show in favor of something.

 

[cross88]

The study your referring to is the Minnesota starvation study.
It placed individuals on a severe caloric deficit(IIRC 40%+) with low protein intake, no resistance training and low intensity cardio (walking, farm work, etc) as the only notable activity for just over a year.
All the individuals hit 5%bf without fail.

The study showed that muscle loss will NEVER overtake fat loss but certainly didn't suggest that you can get away with low protein intake.
Of the total weight lost, 40% came from LBM - that is ALOT.

Most people tend to lose around 1 pound of LBM for every 4 pounds of fat loss (25%) with good protein intake & training in place. Of course this depends on p-ratio, etc but is a good guideline to show what is acceptable.

In short, cutting on a low protein diet is a pretty fucking stupid idea since higher protein intake is the best saviour of your own protein stores AKA your muscles

So youre saying if someone lean bulks for a year and puts on 5lbs of lean mass, and then cuts properly to lose 20lbs (25% lbm loss), that they just lost the 5lbs of muscle they works for a year to put on? That doesn't sound right even for cutting naturally

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

So youre saying if someone lean bulks for a year and puts on 5lbs of lean mass, and then cuts properly to lose 20lbs (25% lbm loss), that they just lost the 5lbs of muscle they works for a year to put on? That doesn't sound right even for cutting naturally

You forget that LBM includes glycogen stores and water - both of which will be lost when dieting so it's not all exclusively muscle.

So if we take the example you gave, of those 5 pounds maybe 1-2 pounds is actually muscle and the rest glycogen/water that is recovered fairly quickly when the diet is over.

The point being that muscle loss is grossly exaggerated for naturals who diet properly - even for those genetically more susceptible to it.

 

[cross88]

You forget that LBM includes glycogen stores and water - both of which will be lost when dieting so it's not all exclusively muscle.

So if we take the example you gave, of those 5 pounds maybe 1-2 pounds is actually muscle and the rest glycogen/water that is recovered fairly quickly when the diet is over.

The point being that muscle loss is grossly exaggerated for naturals who diet properly - even for those genetically more susceptible to it.

Not to derail the thread but what amount of lbm loss do you figure for on cycle cutting? And what is a realistic lbm gain per month while bulking?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Not to derail the thread but what amount of lbm loss do you figure for on cycle cutting? And what is a realistic lbm gain per month while bulking?

You shouldn't be losing any real muscle when cutting on cycle.
As far as glycogen & water goes - depends on compounds, e2 management, carb intake, etc.

As far as LBM gain when bulking - it depends on the compounds involved, number of previous cycles, whether or not your past your genetic limit, etc.
If we take a basic first cycle of test as an example, IMO 3-5 pounds of legit muscle per month is a realistic goal.

 

[omgmike1]

Yes.

You may want to bump the protein up to 350g depending on how lean you are.
Also, make sure you control your training volume - too much can and will hurt you in a large deficit.

I've always trained with super high volume and for a few hours while bulking. It has helped me put on a lot of mass and I plan to do this for test E- 12 weeks too.

However, for cutting, if i say: train 3 hrs-weights only-6 days a week. I STILL manage to mark my deficit around 1500 cals a day, would this still be fine to preserve mass, w/adequate protein in take.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I've always trained with super high volume and for a few hours while bulking. It has helped me put on a lot of mass and I plan to do this for test E- 12 weeks too.

However, for cutting, if i say: train 3 hrs-weights only-6 days a week. I STILL manage to mark my deficit around 1500 cals a day, would this still be fine to preserve mass, w/adequate protein in take.

But we're not talking about bulking or training on cycle - we're talking about being in a severe caloric deficit off cycle.

High volume training is stupid in this scenario for 2 reasons:

1) Its a COMPLETE waste of time since you wont be building any muscle and you don't need much to preserve what muscle you have. In other words, half of your session is just fucking around in the gym.

2) There is NO WAY you'll be able to fuel the workout because your ENERGY intake is less than normal. Expecting to consume drastically less calories (energy) but still maintain the same volume of activity is idiotic for obvious reasons.

Keep it simple.
2-3 exercises per muscle group 2x week with w/e split you want.
Done.

 

[SoCalSwole]

I've always trained with super high volume and for a few hours while bulking. It has helped me put on a lot of mass and I plan to do this for test E- 12 weeks too.

However, for cutting, if i say: train 3 hrs-weights only-6 days a week. I STILL manage to mark my deficit around 1500 cals a day, would this still be fine to preserve mass, w/adequate protein in take.

1500 cal a day deficit is too low. You will lose muscle. been there done that. 500 deficit maybe 750. The first two weeks you will lose a lot water weight. But then it tapers off and if you are losing more than 2 pounds a week after the initial water loss then thats too much. Go ahead and try to prove us all wrong but don't crying back when you lose all your gains.

Oh while your at it you might as well start running long distance too. I mean if your on the catabolic kick might as well go all in.