Therealkozmo
Mr. Micropenis
So the study that doctors use to determine normal testosterone range is flawed because they used a large age range. What are you using to assess where your natural testosterone levels should be
data on healthy testosterone levels
- Thread starter Therealkozmo
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IMT staff
Official Sponsor
Its best to go by symptoms and then Free T and E2. We are finding out now low E2 is just as big of a problem as lowT.
Symptoms reveal a problem, blood work analysis confirms the source of the problem.
When your Free T levels start to drop the first thing your body does is cut production of estradiol. This is because E2 is made out of testosterone, so due to homeostasis your body is trying to conserve T.
We have found most of the time if you have all the classic symptoms, you will be deficient in one or more of the following 3 categories:
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estradiol
Symptoms reveal a problem, blood work analysis confirms the source of the problem.
When your Free T levels start to drop the first thing your body does is cut production of estradiol. This is because E2 is made out of testosterone, so due to homeostasis your body is trying to conserve T.
We have found most of the time if you have all the classic symptoms, you will be deficient in one or more of the following 3 categories:
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estradiol
Megatron28
Moderator
What is the mechanism for the body cutting production of estradiol? I thought the body really only had the ability to toggle LH/FSH output when seeking testosterone/estradiol homeostasis? Or is it able to quickly toggle the amount of aromatase enzyme it has or some other mechanism? I am interested in learning more about this.
Megatron28
Moderator
Can you elaborate on this?
IMT staff
Official Sponsor
Megatron28
Moderator
Thanks. I have it a read. I found this.
Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-Müllerian hormone and the common herbicide glyphosate.[8] Aromatase activity appears to be enhanced in certain estrogen-dependent local tissue next to breast tissue, endometrial cancer, endometriosis, and uterine fibroids.
Is there something else in there that discusses the process you are describing?
Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, gonadotropins, and alcohol. Aromatase activity is decreased by prolactin, anti-Müllerian hormone and the common herbicide glyphosate.[8] Aromatase activity appears to be enhanced in certain estrogen-dependent local tissue next to breast tissue, endometrial cancer, endometriosis, and uterine fibroids.
Is there something else in there that discusses the process you are describing?
IMT staff
Official Sponsor
I don't really understand what your missing? You have copied a single portion of the literature to get some sort of conformational bias?
Do you understand the relationship of the P450 enzyme? You do realize HCG stimulates it right? You realize IGF-1 also plays a role? You also realize there are unknown factors too?
I think you are looking at it as a black and white scenario when there are many scenarios that could cause decreased expression of aromatase. Homeostasis is broad term used describe biological equilibrium of many different processes in the body.
You tend to do this with total t levels as well, as if anyone with somewhat normal TT levels clearly does not have hypogonadism even if they have all the symptoms?
Or are you just trolling me because you don't understand these relationships?
Usually when new guys show up asking to spell everything out to them we recommend they do some more research.
Or do you have some reason to believe my statement is false?
Do you understand the relationship of the P450 enzyme? You do realize HCG stimulates it right? You realize IGF-1 also plays a role? You also realize there are unknown factors too?
I think you are looking at it as a black and white scenario when there are many scenarios that could cause decreased expression of aromatase. Homeostasis is broad term used describe biological equilibrium of many different processes in the body.
You tend to do this with total t levels as well, as if anyone with somewhat normal TT levels clearly does not have hypogonadism even if they have all the symptoms?
Or are you just trolling me because you don't understand these relationships?
Usually when new guys show up asking to spell everything out to them we recommend they do some more research.
Or do you have some reason to believe my statement is false?
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Megatron28
Moderator
I don't "realize" anything which is why I am asking. But if you don't want to elaborate and help everyone learn that's ok. My question was simple and sincere. Maybe it is a semantics thing in the way you wrote it. Perhaps you could have worded things better.
And Hypogonadism is a medical definition within the medical community. The commonly accepted standard is that TT is <300ng/dl. Borderline Hypogonadism is TT <350ng/dl coupled with Low Free Testosterone. That isn't my definition. It is the medical community's. I like to think I look at it with a broader picture; but I would also never say that anyone with higher than average TT is hypogonadal.
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IMT staff
Official Sponsor
Oh I get what your logic is, I am just pointing out that it is archaic. There are many well versed doctors out there that understand that low Free T or E2 alone is also considered hypogonadal.
So maybe you should do a little more research on it before using such a blanket "definition".
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Therealkozmo
Mr. Micropenis
Have you found any more accurate studies of testosterone levels
I have a good friend who's TRT regimen is 50mg/week. This puts him at 300 or so TT and it's turned his life around. He's lost a bunch of weight and is chasing his wife around again.
I take 300/week and that gets me to around 700. Any less and I turn into a lethargic asshole. I really don't feel good with a TT of less than 1000.
I think that's where the danger in defining a "normal" range is. It's different for everyone. I like the idea of looking at symptoms more than levels but I can see where doctors would be wary of prescribing test based on that.
The E2 comment interests me. I suspect the hell I was feeling prior to TRT was at least partly due to low E2. Mine was too low to read on the sensitive test when I started. My last doc insisted on 1mg of adex a week and that made me feel almost as bad as before starting TRT.
I take 300/week and that gets me to around 700. Any less and I turn into a lethargic asshole. I really don't feel good with a TT of less than 1000.
I think that's where the danger in defining a "normal" range is. It's different for everyone. I like the idea of looking at symptoms more than levels but I can see where doctors would be wary of prescribing test based on that.
The E2 comment interests me. I suspect the hell I was feeling prior to TRT was at least partly due to low E2. Mine was too low to read on the sensitive test when I started. My last doc insisted on 1mg of adex a week and that made me feel almost as bad as before starting TRT.
Milton
Administrator
do you have any stats to support your theory?
sorry couldn't help it, strong coffee this morning 
tx045
New member
do you have any stats to support your theory?
Not really sure what stats you're meaning to support my theory. Just simply stating that some feel perfectly fine at 400. And there are plenty off people that feel fine at 400 and don't know their levels are at 400.
Have those same people do bloodwork, then show them their testosterone is at the very low end for a 30yr old and all of a sudden it's...holy shit I feel like shit my numbers are so low
Roush
I am banned!
another factor to consider is hormone RATIO , not just the total number.
example , if your testosterone is at 400 and your E is at 50 , you can feel great . That RATIO is dialed in and good . But if you have Test of 400 and Estrogen of say 130 you can be feeling way off. Or test of 400 and E of only 20 , you could feel like crap . Also , if the ratio is exactly the same that you feel good at , but the levels are way higher, say your Test is at 800 and your E is at 100 . the ratio is exactly what it was when you feel great , don't be so alarmed by the fact that your estrogen is 50 points higher (its higher cause your testosterone doubled as well), the ratio is still in line.
so its not just the total Test number thats important .
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Milton
Administrator
You don't believe in numbers....show me your numbers.
I think Milton was just having a little fun.
sorry, they dont let me out much
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